Discussion:
Insights into the Race Issue
(too old to reply)
M Winther
2010-07-10 15:29:20 UTC
Permalink
"Insights into the Race Issue"

Abstract: Genetic research and statistical data have revealed
pronounced racial and ethnic differences. It is counter-productive to
sweep such facts under the carpet. The racial concept is still
relevant to the understanding of the human condition. While
liberal-minded people tend to repress their negative feelings toward
other ethnicities and refuse to acknowledge racial differences or
problems, an unconscious 'multicultural complex' develops. The extent
to which people react with indignation when presented with sterile
facts about race is proportionate to the strength of the unconscious
complex. There exists no other remedy than to bring facts into light,
facts which include considerable ethnic differences in IQ, and
upsetting interracial crime statistics. This is a moral burden that we
all must help to carry, including the worriment of the future prospect
of Western culture, in view of an ongoing mass immigration.

Keywords: ethnic IQ, crime statistics, the Other, multicultural
complex, unconscious racism, eugenics, Arabic reversal, mass
immigration

Read the full article here:
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/raceinsight.htm

Mats Winther
Peter Brooks
2010-07-10 16:09:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Keywords: ethnic IQ, crime statistics, the Other, multicultural
complex, unconscious racism, eugenics, Arabic reversal, mass
immigration
Yea, but, as Lance pointed out, on another thread, it's just a matter
of degree. An Afghani beggar with schizophrenia and a serious head
wound is only different from Wittgenstein in a mere matter of degree.
Fix the wound, the schizophrenia, the language and a few other minor
matters and you'd expect the Tractatus from every beggar.
M Winther
2010-07-11 07:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Brooks
Post by M Winther
Keywords: ethnic IQ, crime statistics, the Other, multicultural
complex, unconscious racism, eugenics, Arabic reversal, mass
immigration
Yea, but, as Lance pointed out, on another thread, it's just a matter
of degree. An Afghani beggar with schizophrenia and a serious head
wound is only different from Wittgenstein in a mere matter of degree.
Fix the wound, the schizophrenia, the language and a few other minor
matters and you'd expect the Tractatus from every beggar.
Sub-Saharan African IQs average 71-75. Historically, Arab slave trade
imported between 11 to 25 million sub-Saharan black Africans, and from
thousands to in excess of one million Europeans (Wikipedia). The
female slaves were exploited sexually (Arab men viewed the womb only
as the room their seed grew in). The African genome was swallowed up
by the Arab population.

The mixing of the two races that occurred rapidly during medieval
times could explain the mysterious cultural reversal that took place
in the Arab world. The Arabic population had at a point inherited so
much of sub-Saharan African traits that it affected the vitality of a
whole civilization. Today's arab mean IQ is around 83, but 86 for the
Lebanese.

In nature, the animals instinctually fear outbreeding, i.e. that the
offspring should lose characteristics suitable for the environment, by
the introduction of foreign genes. That's why species never
interbreed. Nor will a chaffinch from southern Sweden mate with a
chaffinch male from northern Sweden. The female will detect that his
song is different and reject him.

In the human habitat, however, people don't seem to fear that their
children should lose their indigenous intelligence when marrying
ethnicities with a significantly lower average IQ, who are also
significantly different with respect to ambition and hard work, etc.
Thereby thousands of years of genetic investments is thrown away. In
Sweden the unemployment rate of the biggest immigrant group, the
Somalis, is at least 80%. The state of the market doesn't affect this
figure significantly. They continue to breed children and to build a
life entirely upon the welfare system. These people are clearly
different than the Swedish ethnic group.

People swing between the opposites. Not long ago overblown Aryan
ideals dominated, but now people can cohabit with any lowlife, and are
completely unconscious of differences. How about taking a sane middle
position, and to stop swinging between the opposites? A naive
unconsciousness only paves the way for a comeback of Nazi ideals.
Society becomes polarized. It is really very very sad what is
happening. Great Britain once outshined the rest of the nations, now
it is in debt and can hardly fend for itself. Will it experience a
cultural reversal like the Arab nations did in the Middle Ages? Will
the Brits also adopt inane beliefs, regress in every respect, and
become a backward people?

In traditional cultures people felt a responsibility to carry on the
ways of their forefathers. It primitive societies it is sometimes
called ancestor cult. Our ancestors built our culture, its mores and
conceptions, they also gave us our valuable genetic advantages,
expecting that we should continue to build on this. Today, people have
no awareness that they have a responsibility to preserve what their
ancestors have built. We squander our heritage, allow alien values and
cultures to take root, dilute our gene pool, which is suitable for our
Western culture. It is morally very very saddening. The ancestor
spirits are heartbroken.

Mats
Lance
2010-07-11 23:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by Peter Brooks
Post by M Winther
Keywords: ethnic IQ, crime statistics, the Other, multicultural
complex, unconscious racism, eugenics, Arabic reversal, mass
immigration
Yea, but, as Lance pointed out, on another thread, it's just a matter
of degree. An Afghani beggar with schizophrenia and a serious head
wound is only different from Wittgenstein in a mere matter of degree.
Fix the wound, the schizophrenia, the language and a few other minor
matters and you'd expect the Tractatus from every beggar.
Sub-Saharan African IQs average 71-75. Historically, Arab slave trade
imported between 11 to 25 million sub-Saharan black Africans, and from
thousands to in excess of one million Europeans (Wikipedia). The
female slaves were exploited sexually (Arab men viewed the womb only
as the room their seed grew in). The African genome was swallowed up
by the Arab population.
see http://groups.google.com/group/uk.philosophy.humanism/browse_thread/thread/1e7aa9b8de6c36c3#
Post by M Winther
The mixing of the two races that occurred rapidly during medieval
times could explain the mysterious cultural reversal that took place
in the Arab world. The Arabic population had at a point inherited so
much of sub-Saharan African traits that it affected the vitality of a
whole civilization. Today's arab mean IQ is around 83, but 86 for the
Lebanese.
How do you explain the general rise in IQ scores that has occurred
since WW2?

Lance
Phlip
2010-07-12 00:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
How do you explain the general rise in IQ scores that has occurred
since WW2?
Real researchers building the tests, instead of zealots with agendas.
The original IQ tests were invented by racists, and hence they slanted
results on behalf of their race.
Lance
2010-07-12 07:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phlip
Post by Lance
How do you explain the general rise in IQ scores that has occurred
since WW2?
Real researchers building the tests, instead of zealots with agendas.
The original IQ tests were invented by racists, and hence they slanted
results on behalf of their race.
I'm sure that is not true. The tests were not originally intended for
use outside of schools (Binet and Simon) and were specifically
standardized in one country. Racial comparisons came much later.

The rise in IQ is not related specifically to race differences - it
occurs across the board. That is why the link between disease and IQ
is interesting - the advances in medicine, antibiotics, vaccines, etc
could well explain both most of the racial differences AND the general
rise in IQ since WW2.

Lance
Peter Brooks
2010-07-12 10:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
Post by Phlip
Post by Lance
How do you explain the general rise in IQ scores that has occurred
since WW2?
Real researchers building the tests, instead of zealots with agendas.
The original IQ tests were invented by racists, and hence they slanted
results on behalf of their race.
I'm sure that is not true. The tests were not originally intended for
use outside of schools (Binet and Simon) and were specifically
standardized in one country. Racial comparisons came much later.
The rise in IQ is not related specifically to race differences - it
occurs across the board. That is why the link between disease and IQ
is interesting - the advances in medicine, antibiotics, vaccines, etc
could well explain both most of the racial differences AND the general
rise in IQ since WW2.
Indeed - not only that, but it might show historical trends where
disease has caused effects on empires and such like indirectly through
this effect.

Fascinating stuff, I think.
Dave Smith
2010-07-12 22:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
Post by Phlip
Post by Lance
How do you explain the general rise in IQ scores that has occurred
since WW2?
Real researchers building the tests, instead of zealots with agendas.
The original IQ tests were invented by racists, and hence they slanted
results on behalf of their race.
I'm sure that is not true. The tests were not originally intended for
use outside of schools (Binet and Simon) and were specifically
standardized in one country. Racial comparisons came much later.
The rise in IQ is not related specifically to race differences - it
occurs across the board. That is why the link between disease and IQ
is interesting - the advances in medicine, antibiotics, vaccines, etc
could well explain both most of the racial differences AND the general
rise in IQ since WW2.
Lance
Regardless of the intentions of the designer, it must be difficult to
ensure that IQ tests are not culturally biased. I find the notion of
intelligence rather vague -- is a precise definition possible ?
Substantial changes in measured IQ over a relatively short period of
time further muddies the water:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect


Dave Smith
Peter Brooks
2010-07-13 08:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Regardless of the intentions of the designer,  it must be difficult to
ensure that IQ tests are not culturally biased.  I find the notion of
intelligence rather vague -- is a precise definition possible ?
Substantial changes in measured IQ over a relatively short period of
The tests that seem to be least biased and most accurate seem to be
reflex and reaction time. Next in line for those with little cultural
bias are Raven's matrices.

The most precise definitions of IQ have been the 'g' factor, the
common factor found between very different IQ tests.
Dave Smith
2010-07-13 09:36:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Brooks
Regardless of the intentions of the designer,  it must be difficult to
ensure that IQ tests are not culturally biased.  I find the notion of
intelligence rather vague -- is a precise definition possible ?
Substantial changes in measured IQ over a relatively short period of
The tests that seem to be least biased and most accurate seem to be
reflex and reaction time. Next in line for those with little cultural
bias are Raven's matrices.
The most precise definitions of IQ have been the 'g' factor, the
common factor found between very different IQ tests.
It seems to me that 'g' is a statistical abstraction rather than a
definition. Perhaps the notion of intelligence is like the notion of
athletic ability? People are good at different sports, depending on
their physique, effectiveness of heart and lungs, training,
motivation, mood, etc. Similarly, people are good at different
mental activities for a variety of reasons.

Dave Smith
Peter Brooks
2010-07-13 10:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
Post by Peter Brooks
Regardless of the intentions of the designer,  it must be difficult to
ensure that IQ tests are not culturally biased.  I find the notion of
intelligence rather vague -- is a precise definition possible ?
Substantial changes in measured IQ over a relatively short period of
The tests that seem to be least biased and most accurate seem to be
reflex and reaction time. Next in line for those with little cultural
bias are Raven's matrices.
The most precise definitions of IQ have been the 'g' factor, the
common factor found between very different IQ tests.
It seems to me that 'g' is a statistical abstraction rather than a
definition.  Perhaps the notion of intelligence is like the notion of
athletic ability?  People are good at different sports,  depending on
their physique,  effectiveness of heart and lungs, training,
motivation, mood, etc.   Similarly, people are good at different
mental activities for a variety of reasons.
Yes, that's true. However, what also appears to be true is that being
'good at different mental activities' correlates with having a higher
IQ or 'g' factor.

Since it can be measured by reflex and reaction time, it seems to me
that it's measuring the acuteness and agility of the brain as a whole,
which, it's reasonable, I think, you'd expect to correlate with
ability with mental activities.

I think that, if you wanted to, you could find a 'g' for athletic
ability. I'd expect that most professional athletes in almost any
sport would tend to have, as you say, good physique, effective heart
and lung function as well as strong competitive instincts.
Lance
2010-07-13 23:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
Post by Peter Brooks
Regardless of the intentions of the designer,  it must be difficult to
ensure that IQ tests are not culturally biased.  I find the notion of
intelligence rather vague -- is a precise definition possible ?
Substantial changes in measured IQ over a relatively short period of
The tests that seem to be least biased and most accurate seem to be
reflex and reaction time. Next in line for those with little cultural
bias are Raven's matrices.
The most precise definitions of IQ have been the 'g' factor, the
common factor found between very different IQ tests.
It seems to me that 'g' is a statistical abstraction rather than a
definition.  Perhaps the notion of intelligence is like the notion of
athletic ability?  People are good at different sports,  depending on
their physique,  effectiveness of heart and lungs, training,
motivation, mood, etc.   Similarly, people are good at different
mental activities for a variety of reasons.
Dave Smith
Multiple intelligences is an old idea. A fairly recent example is
Howard Gardner's multiple intelligences. But even so, the fact that a
G-factor does emerge does show that all of these talents or abilities
are correlated. So again I think of G as an overall measure of brain
function rather than as a specific kind of intelligence. If you have a
talent then your talent will improve if you are healthy and well
informed and well nourished, etc., and will diminish if you are sick,
lack opportunity and education, and are poorly nourished.

Lance
Lance
2010-07-13 23:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Brooks
Regardless of the intentions of the designer,  it must be difficult to
ensure that IQ tests are not culturally biased.  I find the notion of
intelligence rather vague -- is a precise definition possible ?
Substantial changes in measured IQ over a relatively short period of
The tests that seem to be least biased and most accurate seem to be
reflex and reaction time. Next in line for those with little cultural
bias are Raven's matrices.
The most precise definitions of IQ have been the 'g' factor, the
common factor found between very different IQ tests.
IQ tests were designed to predict success in academic settings
(schools and universities) and I think they remain the best predictors
of such success. They are not that good at predicting success in
business or other aspects of life outside the academy.

I tend to think of them as an overall measure of how well a brain
functions. And the medical correlations strongly suggest that this is
not a bad way of viewing them. IQ is diminished by nutritional
deficits, deficits in education and experience, and it seems by
parasites and disease.

Lance
M Winther
2010-07-13 12:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
Regardless of the intentions of the designer, it must be difficult to
ensure that IQ tests are not culturally biased. I find the notion of
intelligence rather vague -- is a precise definition possible ?
Substantial changes in measured IQ over a relatively short period of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
Dave Smith
Asians do better than the Caucasians, who made the test.
This is evidence against cultural bias.

Mats
Peter Brooks
2010-07-13 12:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Asians do better than the Caucasians, who made the test.
This is evidence against cultural bias.
Actually it isn't. There could be any number of reasons why a test
that is highly culturally biased could be performed better by those
not of that culture.

Just to mention one, a test that relied on an understanding of English
grammatical rules might be easier for somebody who only had English as
a second language because they'd have been taught grammatical rules
more explicitly than natural English speakers.
Lance
2010-07-13 23:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Brooks
Post by M Winther
Asians do better than the Caucasians, who made the test.
This is evidence against cultural bias.
Actually it isn't. There could be any number of reasons why a test
that is highly culturally biased could be performed better by those
not of that culture.
Just to mention one, a test that relied on an understanding of English
grammatical rules might be easier for somebody who only had English as
a second language because they'd have been taught grammatical rules
more explicitly than natural English speakers.
Some parts of IQ tests are clearly cultural - e.g., questions about
current affairs. But non-verbal IQ tests still show differences
between groups. There are interesting studies showing different
patterns of thinking across cultural (see for example Nissbett's book,
The Geography of Thought) so it is possible for culture to affect non-
verbal thinking too.

Lance
M Winther
2010-07-14 05:03:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Brooks
Post by M Winther
Asians do better than the Caucasians, who made the test.
This is evidence against cultural bias.
Actually it isn't. There could be any number of reasons why a test
that is highly culturally biased could be performed better by those
not of that culture.
Just to mention one, a test that relied on an understanding of English
grammatical rules might be easier for somebody who only had English as
a second language because they'd have been taught grammatical rules
more explicitly than natural English speakers.
An IQ-test should be language-independent, otherwise it's useless.

Certain African states have 30 points lower IQ than certain European
states. Such a huge IQ differential cannot depend on culturally biased
tests.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

Mats
graham
2010-07-13 13:37:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
Post by Phlip
Post by Lance
How do you explain the general rise in IQ scores that has occurred
since WW2?
Real researchers building the tests, instead of zealots with agendas.
The original IQ tests were invented by racists, and hence they slanted
results on behalf of their race.
I'm sure that is not true. The tests were not originally intended for
use outside of schools (Binet and Simon) and were specifically
standardized in one country. Racial comparisons came much later.
The rise in IQ is not related specifically to race differences - it
occurs across the board. That is why the link between disease and IQ
is interesting - the advances in medicine, antibiotics, vaccines, etc
could well explain both most of the racial differences AND the general
rise in IQ since WW2.
Lance
Regardless of the intentions of the designer, it must be difficult to
ensure that IQ tests are not culturally biased. I find the notion of
intelligence rather vague -- is a precise definition possible ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I recall that this was discussed here a couple of years ago. Stephen J.
Gould thought that since IQ cannot be defined, it can't be measured.
Graham
Peter Brooks
2010-07-13 13:49:35 UTC
Permalink
I recall that this was discussed here a couple of years ago.  Stephen J.
Gould thought that since IQ cannot be defined, it can't be measured.
Which is completely daft. Electricity was measured long, long before
anybody had any idea how it was defined, and that was just one
example.

Gould had political objections to IQ that led him to make silly
pronouncements of that sort.

He was quite right to be concerned about the wicked ways in which some
people exploited the technology, but, sadly, he failed to understand
that that wasn't an issue with the technology itself.
Lance
2010-07-13 23:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Brooks
I recall that this was discussed here a couple of years ago.  Stephen J.
Gould thought that since IQ cannot be defined, it can't be measured.
Which is completely daft. Electricity was measured long, long before
anybody had any idea how it was defined, and that was just one
example.
Gould had political objections to IQ that led him to make silly
pronouncements of that sort.
He was quite right to be concerned about the wicked ways in which some
people exploited the technology, but, sadly, he failed to understand
that that wasn't an issue with the technology itself.
I am not sure that the example of electricity really applies in the
multivariate world of human biology and psychology. The designers of
IQ tests did have an idea in mind - they were looking originally for
questions that would clearly distinguish the mental capacity of
children at different ages. They were particularly concerned to find
questions that would correlate with academic performance in schools.
So I think IQ was designed as a measure of ability to succeed in
school.

Lance
Peter Brooks
2010-07-14 11:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
Post by Peter Brooks
I recall that this was discussed here a couple of years ago.  Stephen J.
Gould thought that since IQ cannot be defined, it can't be measured.
Which is completely daft. Electricity was measured long, long before
anybody had any idea how it was defined, and that was just one
example.
Gould had political objections to IQ that led him to make silly
pronouncements of that sort.
He was quite right to be concerned about the wicked ways in which some
people exploited the technology, but, sadly, he failed to understand
that that wasn't an issue with the technology itself.
I am not sure that the example of electricity really applies in the
multivariate world of human biology and psychology. The designers of
IQ tests did have an idea in mind - they were looking originally for
questions that would clearly distinguish the mental capacity of
children at different ages. They were particularly concerned to find
questions that would correlate with academic performance in schools.
So I think IQ was designed as a measure of ability to succeed in
school.
I thought the first tests were designed by the US military to grade
cannon fodder.
Lance
2010-07-14 12:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Brooks
Post by Lance
Post by Peter Brooks
I recall that this was discussed here a couple of years ago.  Stephen J.
Gould thought that since IQ cannot be defined, it can't be measured.
Which is completely daft. Electricity was measured long, long before
anybody had any idea how it was defined, and that was just one
example.
Gould had political objections to IQ that led him to make silly
pronouncements of that sort.
He was quite right to be concerned about the wicked ways in which some
people exploited the technology, but, sadly, he failed to understand
that that wasn't an issue with the technology itself.
I am not sure that the example of electricity really applies in the
multivariate world of human biology and psychology. The designers of
IQ tests did have an idea in mind - they were looking originally for
questions that would clearly distinguish the mental capacity of
children at different ages. They were particularly concerned to find
questions that would correlate with academic performance in schools.
So I think IQ was designed as a measure of ability to succeed in
school.
I thought the first tests were designed by the US military to grade
cannon fodder.
No the first tests were intended to help the French government decide
which pupils in the French school system were in need of special
educational assistance.

see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Binet

Lance
walt tonne
2010-07-11 18:40:40 UTC
Permalink
Why the continued attempts to sweep aside scientific knowledge? Some
of the studies
of racial differences have lead to improved medical care for many.

http://www.amren.com/ American Renaissance
- .. -- Tim .-.
2010-07-14 12:09:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
"Insights into the Race Issue"
Abstract: Genetic research and statistical data have revealed
pronounced racial and ethnic differences. It is counter-productive to
sweep such facts under the carpet. The racial concept is still
relevant to the understanding of the human condition. While
liberal-minded people tend to repress their negative feelings toward
other ethnicities and refuse to acknowledge racial differences or
problems, an unconscious 'multicultural complex' develops. The extent
to which people react with indignation when presented with sterile
facts about race is proportionate to the strength of the unconscious
complex. There exists no other remedy than to bring facts into light,
facts which include considerable ethnic differences in IQ, and
upsetting interracial crime statistics. This is a moral burden that we
all must help to carry, including the worriment of the future prospect
of Western culture, in view of an ongoing mass immigration.
Keywords: ethnic IQ, crime statistics, the Other, multicultural
complex, unconscious racism, eugenics, Arabic reversal, mass
immigration
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/raceinsight.htm
Mats Winther
Of course, this is very controversial. Our recent ancestors (some still
living) remember the appalling consequences of using "Theories of race" to
attempt to justify the cruellest of discrimination. It has, as we know, the
potential to bring out what most of us would consider to be the very worst
of human behaviour, as the 1940's taught us. IMO we should all be very wary
of the way such research can be mis-used. I consider us to be one species,
that is, only one 'race', with regional variations. Indeed, I thought that
was the generally accepted view?

Anyhow, considering the article, if I have understood it correctly, it is
suggesting that homo sapiens, which originated in Africa, spread out from
there, and those that left that continent met up with and interbred with
Neanderthals, who had larger brains, resulting in some DNA which proved
beneficial to intelligence? I had always thought that Neanderthals were of
lesser intelligence to Homo Sapiens, and that that is why they were not as
successful. Two things occurred to me: (1) we must have been quite closely
related to Neanderthals, if interbreeding were possible. AFAIK Homo Sapiens
cannot interbreed with any other species alive today (although from the
drawings and statues it seems the Romans had a go), and (2) If the
Neanderthals were that bright, why weren't they more successful?

So, the article is claiming that the Homo Sapiens who remained in Africa did
not gain the benefit of the Neanderthal DNA, and consequently have a lower
average intelligence rating. Of course, in Africa in the last two centuries
there has been a massive influx of people from outside, presumably bringing
their 'beneficial' Neanderthal DNA inheritance with them, as well as the
indigenous populations travelling abroad and intermixing that way.

From a practical point of view, though, it does seem odd that Africa, which
has some of the best fertile land, mineral deposits and other resources on
the planet, and where Homo Sapiens have been the longest, is not the richest
and most successful continent. It has all the advantages suggesting that it
ought to be. Maybe it was just too easy an environment, and not challenging
enough to favour selection of higher intelligence? Of course, how we
*measure* intelligence is another matter altogether.

Tim.
[Cross-postings left in, but I am only reading in uk.philosophy.humanism.]
Lance
2010-07-14 12:20:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
"Insights into the Race Issue"
Abstract: Genetic research and statistical data have revealed
pronounced racial and ethnic differences. It is counter-productive to
sweep such facts under the carpet. The racial concept is still
relevant to the understanding of the human condition. While
liberal-minded people tend to repress their negative feelings toward
other ethnicities and refuse to acknowledge racial differences or
problems, an unconscious 'multicultural complex' develops. The extent
to which people react with indignation when presented with sterile
facts about race is proportionate to the strength of the unconscious
complex. There exists no other remedy than to bring facts into light,
facts which include considerable ethnic differences in IQ, and
upsetting interracial crime statistics. This is a moral burden that we
all must help to carry, including the worriment of the future prospect
of Western culture, in view of an ongoing mass immigration.
Keywords: ethnic IQ, crime statistics, the Other, multicultural
complex, unconscious racism, eugenics, Arabic reversal, mass
immigration
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/raceinsight.htm
Mats Winther
Of course, this is very controversial.  Our recent ancestors (some still
living) remember the appalling consequences of using "Theories of race" to
attempt to justify the cruellest of discrimination.  It has, as we know, the
potential to bring out what most of us would consider to be the very worst
of human behaviour, as the 1940's taught us.  IMO we should all be very wary
of the way such research can be mis-used.  I consider us to be one species,
that is, only one 'race', with regional variations.  Indeed, I thought that
was the generally accepted view?
Anyhow, considering the article, if I have understood it correctly, it is
suggesting that homo sapiens, which originated in Africa, spread out from
there, and those that left that continent met up with and interbred with
Neanderthals, who had larger brains, resulting in some DNA which proved
beneficial to intelligence?  I had always thought that Neanderthals were of
lesser intelligence to Homo Sapiens, and that that is why they were not as
successful.  Two things occurred to me:  (1) we must have been quite closely
related to Neanderthals, if interbreeding were possible.  AFAIK Homo Sapiens
cannot interbreed with any other species alive today (although from the
drawings and statues it seems the Romans had a go), and (2) If the
Neanderthals were that bright, why weren't they more successful?
So, the article is claiming that the Homo Sapiens who remained in Africa did
not gain the benefit of the Neanderthal DNA, and consequently have a lower
average intelligence rating.  Of course, in Africa in the last two centuries
there has been a massive influx of people from outside, presumably bringing
their 'beneficial' Neanderthal DNA inheritance with them, as well as the
indigenous populations travelling abroad and intermixing that way.
From a practical point of view, though, it does seem odd that Africa, which
has some of the best fertile land, mineral deposits and other resources on
the planet, and where Homo Sapiens have been the longest, is not the richest
and most successful continent.  It has all the advantages suggesting that it
ought to be.  Maybe it was just too easy an environment, and not challenging
enough to favour selection of higher intelligence?  Of course, how we
*measure* intelligence is another matter altogether.
Tim.
[Cross-postings left in, but I am only reading in uk.philosophy.humanism.]
"From a practical point of view, though, it does seem odd that Africa,
which
has some of the best fertile land, mineral deposits and other
resources on
the planet, and where Homo Sapiens have been the longest, is not the
richest
and most successful continent. It has all the advantages suggesting
that it
ought to be. Maybe it was just too easy an environment, and not
challenging
enough to favour selection of higher intelligence? Of course, how we
*measure* intelligence is another matter altogether."

- Disease is high in Africa. European settlers there were initially
all killed by disease, and it is only recently that Europeans have
been able to live in the interior of Africa.

- Africa is cut off from the rest of the world by a great desert in
the north and by relatively steep escarpments that make it difficult
to penetrate. The greatest boost to cultural evolution is contact with
other peoples - and in sub-Saharan Africa that was largely limited to
Arab trades down the East Coast. Trade that developed since the period
of European expansion was largely limited to slave trading - hardly
the kind of trade that promotes cultural development.

Lance
- .. -- Tim .-.
2010-07-14 13:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
Post by M Winther
"Insights into the Race Issue"
Abstract: Genetic research and statistical data have revealed
pronounced racial and ethnic differences. It is counter-productive
to sweep such facts under the carpet. The racial concept is still
relevant to the understanding of the human condition. While
liberal-minded people tend to repress their negative feelings toward
other ethnicities and refuse to acknowledge racial differences or
problems, an unconscious 'multicultural complex' develops. The
extent to which people react with indignation when presented with
sterile facts about race is proportionate to the strength of the
unconscious complex. There exists no other remedy than to bring
facts into light, facts which include considerable ethnic
differences in IQ, and upsetting interracial crime statistics. This
is a moral burden that we all must help to carry, including the
worriment of the future prospect of Western culture, in view of an
ongoing mass immigration.
Keywords: ethnic IQ, crime statistics, the Other, multicultural
complex, unconscious racism, eugenics, Arabic reversal, mass
immigration
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/raceinsight.htm
Mats Winther
Of course, this is very controversial. Our recent ancestors (some
still living) remember the appalling consequences of using "Theories
of race" to attempt to justify the cruellest of discrimination. It
has, as we know, the potential to bring out what most of us would
consider to be the very worst of human behaviour, as the 1940's
taught us. IMO we should all be very wary of the way such research
can be mis-used. I consider us to be one species, that is, only one
'race', with regional variations. Indeed, I thought that was the
generally accepted view?
Anyhow, considering the article, if I have understood it correctly,
it is suggesting that homo sapiens, which originated in Africa,
spread out from there, and those that left that continent met up
with and interbred with Neanderthals, who had larger brains,
resulting in some DNA which proved beneficial to intelligence? I had
always thought that Neanderthals were of lesser intelligence to Homo
Sapiens, and that that is why they were not as successful. Two
things occurred to me: (1) we must have been quite closely related
to Neanderthals, if interbreeding were possible. AFAIK Homo Sapiens
cannot interbreed with any other species alive today (although from
the drawings and statues it seems the Romans had a go), and (2) If
the Neanderthals were that bright, why weren't they more successful?
So, the article is claiming that the Homo Sapiens who remained in
Africa did not gain the benefit of the Neanderthal DNA, and
consequently have a lower average intelligence rating. Of course, in
Africa in the last two centuries there has been a massive influx of
people from outside, presumably bringing their 'beneficial'
Neanderthal DNA inheritance with them, as well as the indigenous
populations travelling abroad and intermixing that way.
From a practical point of view, though, it does seem odd that
Africa, which has some of the best fertile land, mineral deposits
and other resources on the planet, and where Homo Sapiens have been
the longest, is not the richest and most successful continent. It
has all the advantages suggesting that it ought to be. Maybe it was
just too easy an environment, and not challenging enough to favour
selection of higher intelligence? Of course, how we *measure*
intelligence is another matter altogether.
Tim.
[Cross-postings left in, but I am only reading in
uk.philosophy.humanism.]
"From a practical point of view, though, it does seem odd that Africa,
which
has some of the best fertile land, mineral deposits and other
resources on
the planet, and where Homo Sapiens have been the longest, is not the richest
and most successful continent. It has all the advantages suggesting that it
ought to be. Maybe it was just too easy an environment, and not challenging
enough to favour selection of higher intelligence? Of course, how we
*measure* intelligence is another matter altogether."
- Disease is high in Africa. European settlers there were initially
all killed by disease, and it is only recently that Europeans have
been able to live in the interior of Africa.
- Africa is cut off from the rest of the world by a great desert in
the north and by relatively steep escarpments that make it difficult
to penetrate. The greatest boost to cultural evolution is contact with
other peoples - and in sub-Saharan Africa that was largely limited to
Arab trades down the East Coast. Trade that developed since the period
of European expansion was largely limited to slave trading - hardly
the kind of trade that promotes cultural development.
Lance
Yes, undeniably very valid points, Lance. I suppose it may well explain it.
I am not in favour of any 'research' reports that attempt to suggest that
any groups of people are in any sense inferior to other groups, anyway. It
goes right against my views, my views are well summed up in the Key West
quote: "All people are equal members of our one human family", which is why
I included the first paragraph.

Regarding the slave trading, however, it is historically important that it
is remembered that some indigenous African groups assisted in this by
capturing and trading people from other indigenous African groups, selling
them on to the White traders. I agree that it didn't encourage cultural
development, but it does indicate that not all the indigenous groups were
blameless.

On the subect of diseases, I seem to remember hearing that European
explorers going to parts of South America brought with them diseases that
killed off considerable numbers of the populations there. I suppose this is
less of a problem now that travel is more widespread, we share it all
around, and thus build up better immunity! (Also, of course, there have
been considerable advances in medicine).

Tim.
Peter Brooks
2010-07-14 17:24:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
Post by M Winther
"Insights into the Race Issue"
Abstract: Genetic research and statistical data have revealed
pronounced racial and ethnic differences. It is counter-productive
to sweep such facts under the carpet. The racial concept is still
relevant to the understanding of the human condition. While
liberal-minded people tend to repress their negative feelings toward
other ethnicities and refuse to acknowledge racial differences or
problems, an unconscious 'multicultural complex' develops. The
extent to which people react with indignation when presented with
sterile facts about race is proportionate to the strength of the
unconscious complex. There exists no other remedy than to bring
facts into light, facts which include considerable ethnic
differences in IQ, and upsetting interracial crime statistics. This
is a moral burden that we all must help to carry, including the
worriment of the future prospect of Western culture, in view of an
ongoing mass immigration.
Keywords: ethnic IQ, crime statistics, the Other, multicultural
complex, unconscious racism, eugenics, Arabic reversal, mass
immigration
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/raceinsight.htm
Mats Winther
Of course, this is very controversial. Our recent ancestors (some
still living) remember the appalling consequences of using "Theories
of race" to attempt to justify the cruellest of discrimination. It
has, as we know, the potential to bring out what most of us would
consider to be the very worst of human behaviour, as the 1940's
taught us. IMO we should all be very wary of the way such research
can be mis-used. I consider us to be one species, that is, only one
'race', with regional variations. Indeed, I thought that was the
generally accepted view?
Anyhow, considering the article, if I have understood it correctly,
it is suggesting that homo sapiens, which originated in Africa,
spread out from there, and those that left that continent met up
with and interbred with Neanderthals, who had larger brains,
resulting in some DNA which proved beneficial to intelligence? I had
always thought that Neanderthals were of lesser intelligence to Homo
Sapiens, and that that is why they were not as successful. Two
things occurred to me: (1) we must have been quite closely related
to Neanderthals, if interbreeding were possible. AFAIK Homo Sapiens
cannot interbreed with any other species alive today (although from
the drawings and statues it seems the Romans had a go), and (2) If
the Neanderthals were that bright, why weren't they more successful?
So, the article is claiming that the Homo Sapiens who remained in
Africa did not gain the benefit of the Neanderthal DNA, and
consequently have a lower average intelligence rating. Of course, in
Africa in the last two centuries there has been a massive influx of
people from outside, presumably bringing their 'beneficial'
Neanderthal DNA inheritance with them, as well as the indigenous
populations travelling abroad and intermixing that way.
From a practical point of view, though, it does seem odd that
Africa, which has some of the best fertile land, mineral deposits
and other resources on the planet, and where Homo Sapiens have been
the longest, is not the richest and most successful continent. It
has all the advantages suggesting that it ought to be. Maybe it was
just too easy an environment, and not challenging enough to favour
selection of higher intelligence? Of course, how we *measure*
intelligence is another matter altogether.
Tim.
[Cross-postings left in, but I am only reading in
uk.philosophy.humanism.]
"From a practical point of view, though, it does seem odd that Africa,
which
has some of the best fertile land, mineral deposits and other resources on
the planet, and where Homo Sapiens have been the longest, is not the richest
and most successful continent.  It has all the advantages suggesting that it
ought to be.  Maybe it was just too easy an environment, and not challenging
enough to favour selection of higher intelligence?  Of course, how we
*measure* intelligence is another matter altogether."
- Disease is high in Africa. European settlers there were initially
all killed by disease, and it is only recently that Europeans have
been able to live in the interior of Africa.
- Africa is cut off from the rest of the world by a great desert in
the north and by relatively steep escarpments that make it difficult
to penetrate. The greatest boost to cultural evolution is contact with
other peoples - and in sub-Saharan Africa that was largely limited to
Arab trades down the East Coast. Trade that developed since the period
of European expansion was largely limited to slave trading - hardly
the kind of trade that promotes cultural development.
Lance
Yes, undeniably very valid points, Lance.  I suppose it may well explain it.
I am not in favour of any 'research' reports that attempt to suggest that
any groups of people are in any sense inferior to other groups, anyway.  It
goes right against my views, my views are well summed up in the Key West
quote:  "All people are equal members of our one human family", which is why
I included the first paragraph.
Regarding the slave trading, however, it is historically important that it
is remembered that some indigenous African groups assisted in this by
capturing and trading people from other indigenous African groups, selling
them on to the White traders.  I agree that it didn't encourage cultural
development, but it does indicate that not all the indigenous groups were
blameless.
Who suggests that anybody is blameless?
Lance is right, West Africa was known, until fairly recently, as the
'White man's graveyard' - it nearly killed me, so I know what they
meant!
LifeBinge
2010-07-16 00:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
Post by M Winther
"Insights into the Race Issue"
Abstract: Genetic research and statistical data have revealed
pronounced racial and ethnic differences. It is counter-productive to
sweep such facts under the carpet. The racial concept is still
relevant to the understanding of the human condition. While
liberal-minded people tend to repress their negative feelings toward
other ethnicities and refuse to acknowledge racial differences or
problems, an unconscious 'multicultural complex' develops. The extent
to which people react with indignation when presented with sterile
facts about race is proportionate to the strength of the unconscious
complex. There exists no other remedy than to bring facts into light,
facts which include considerable ethnic differences in IQ, and
upsetting interracial crime statistics. This is a moral burden that we
all must help to carry, including the worriment of the future prospect
of Western culture, in view of an ongoing mass immigration.
Keywords: ethnic IQ, crime statistics, the Other, multicultural
complex, unconscious racism, eugenics, Arabic reversal, mass
immigration
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/raceinsight.htm
Mats Winther
Of course, this is very controversial.  Our recent ancestors (some still
living) remember the appalling consequences of using "Theories of race" to
attempt to justify the cruellest of discrimination.  It has, as we know, the
potential to bring out what most of us would consider to be the very worst
of human behaviour, as the 1940's taught us.  IMO we should all be very wary
of the way such research can be mis-used.  I consider us to be one species,
that is, only one 'race', with regional variations.  Indeed, I thought that
was the generally accepted view?
Anyhow, considering the article, if I have understood it correctly, it is
suggesting that homo sapiens, which originated in Africa, spread out from
there, and those that left that continent met up with and interbred with
Neanderthals, who had larger brains, resulting in some DNA which proved
beneficial to intelligence?  I had always thought that Neanderthals were of
lesser intelligence to Homo Sapiens, and that that is why they were not as
successful.  Two things occurred to me:  (1) we must have been quite closely
related to Neanderthals, if interbreeding were possible.  AFAIK Homo Sapiens
cannot interbreed with any other species alive today (although from the
drawings and statues it seems the Romans had a go), and (2) If the
Neanderthals were that bright, why weren't they more successful?
So, the article is claiming that the Homo Sapiens who remained in Africa did
not gain the benefit of the Neanderthal DNA, and consequently have a lower
average intelligence rating.  Of course, in Africa in the last two centuries
there has been a massive influx of people from outside, presumably bringing
their 'beneficial' Neanderthal DNA inheritance with them, as well as the
indigenous populations travelling abroad and intermixing that way.
From a practical point of view, though, it does seem odd that Africa, which
has some of the best fertile land, mineral deposits and other resources on
the planet, and where Homo Sapiens have been the longest, is not the richest
and most successful continent.  It has all the advantages suggesting that it
ought to be.  Maybe it was just too easy an environment, and not challenging
enough to favour selection of higher intelligence?  Of course, how we
*measure* intelligence is another matter altogether.
Tim.
[Cross-postings left in, but I am only reading in uk.philosophy.humanism.]
"From a practical point of view, though, it does seem odd that Africa,
which
has some of the best fertile land, mineral deposits and other
resources on
the planet, and where Homo Sapiens have been the longest, is not the richest
and most successful continent.  It has all the advantages suggesting that it
ought to be.  Maybe it was just too easy an environment, and not challenging
enough to favour selection of higher intelligence?  Of course, how we
*measure* intelligence is another matter altogether."
- Disease is high in Africa. European settlers there were initially
all killed by disease, and it is only recently that Europeans have
been able to live in the interior of Africa.
- Africa is cut off from the rest of the world by a great desert in
the north and by relatively steep escarpments that make it difficult
to penetrate. The greatest boost to cultural evolution is contact with
other peoples - and in sub-Saharan Africa that was largely limited to
Arab trades down the East Coast. Trade that developed since the period
of European expansion was largely limited to slave trading - hardly
the kind of trade that promotes cultural development.
Lance- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
You are as you are conditioned to be. You experience you learn, You
live you adapt.. our racial differences come from adaptations.
People who fight and dispute and segregate races are those who are
afraid of differences..
I'm not saying we should all mix and blend into one race or demolish
the individual "lesser"cultural societies (as some would put them),
These Cultural societies are neccesary especially in our Human
development to encourage the opening of the eyes of those in Higher
developed societies to the realities in which we've twisted for our
own empowerment over others..

Humanity is a Pathetic race of Ignorance and Desease.
Peter Brooks
2010-07-16 04:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by LifeBinge
.
I'm not saying we should all mix and blend into one race or demolish
the individual "lesser"cultural societies (as some would put them),
I'm not sure. I think that there is some benefit to demolishing lesser
cultures. On the whole, I think that the world benefitted from the
demolition of the Egyptian Empire, the Roman Empire and the British
Empire - even though these Empires all had some huge cultural
benefits. So I'm generally in favour of the demolition of pervasive,
lesser, imperial cultures.
Phlip
2010-07-16 23:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
- Africa is cut off from the rest of the world by a great desert in
the north and by relatively steep escarpments that make it difficult
to penetrate. The greatest boost to cultural evolution is contact with
other peoples - and in sub-Saharan Africa that was largely limited to
Arab trades down the East Coast. Trade that developed since the period
of European expansion was largely limited to slave trading - hardly
the kind of trade that promotes cultural development.
And the biggest threat to Africans was European colonists disrupting
their institutions and disease-resistant lifestyles. For example, they
originally lived on dry plateaus away from bugs. But Europeans, with
steam boats, insist on moving them to river valleys, where bugs and
diseases can get them.
M Winther
2010-07-14 18:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
"Insights into the Race Issue"
Abstract: Genetic research and statistical data have revealed
pronounced racial and ethnic differences. It is counter-productive to
sweep such facts under the carpet. The racial concept is still
relevant to the understanding of the human condition. While
liberal-minded people tend to repress their negative feelings toward
other ethnicities and refuse to acknowledge racial differences or
problems, an unconscious 'multicultural complex' develops. The extent
to which people react with indignation when presented with sterile
facts about race is proportionate to the strength of the unconscious
complex. There exists no other remedy than to bring facts into light,
facts which include considerable ethnic differences in IQ, and
upsetting interracial crime statistics. This is a moral burden that we
all must help to carry, including the worriment of the future prospect
of Western culture, in view of an ongoing mass immigration.
Keywords: ethnic IQ, crime statistics, the Other, multicultural
complex, unconscious racism, eugenics, Arabic reversal, mass
immigration
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/raceinsight.htm
Mats Winther
Of course, this is very controversial. Our recent ancestors (some still living) remember the appalling consequences of using
"Theories of race" to attempt to justify the cruellest of discrimination. It has, as we know, the potential to bring out what
most of us would consider to be the very worst of human behaviour, as the 1940's taught us. IMO we should all be very wary of the
way such research can be mis-used. I consider us to be one species, that is, only one 'race', with regional variations. Indeed,
I thought that was the generally accepted view?
Anyhow, considering the article, if I have understood it correctly, it is suggesting that homo sapiens, which originated in
Africa, spread out from there, and those that left that continent met up with and interbred with Neanderthals, who had larger
brains, resulting in some DNA which proved beneficial to intelligence? I had always thought that Neanderthals were of lesser
intelligence to Homo Sapiens, and that that is why they were not as successful. Two things occurred to me: (1) we must have been
quite closely related to Neanderthals, if interbreeding were possible. AFAIK Homo Sapiens cannot interbreed with any other
species alive today (although from the drawings and statues it seems the Romans had a go), and (2) If the Neanderthals were that
bright, why weren't they more successful?
So, the article is claiming that the Homo Sapiens who remained in Africa did not gain the benefit of the Neanderthal DNA, and
consequently have a lower average intelligence rating. Of course, in Africa in the last two centuries there has been a massive
influx of people from outside, presumably bringing their 'beneficial' Neanderthal DNA inheritance with them, as well as the
indigenous populations travelling abroad and intermixing that way.
From a practical point of view, though, it does seem odd that Africa, which has some of the best fertile land, mineral deposits
and other resources on the planet, and where Homo Sapiens have been the longest, is not the richest and most successful continent.
It has all the advantages suggesting that it ought to be. Maybe it was just too easy an environment, and not challenging enough
to favour selection of higher intelligence? Of course, how we *measure* intelligence is another matter altogether.
Tim.
[Cross-postings left in, but I am only reading in uk.philosophy.humanism.]
On the other hand, if we avoid speaking about these matters, then we
let the extreme right wing monopolize the truth. This is very
dangerous. Society gets more and more polarized between airy-fairy
liberal-minded ideology and its opposite. It is never good, in the
long run, not to relate to truth.

People swing between the opposites. Not long ago overblown Aryan
ideals dominated, but now people can cohabit with any lowlife, and are
completely oblivious of differences. How about taking a sane middle
position, and stop swinging between the opposites? I think a naive
unconsciousness only paves the way for a comeback of Nazi ideals.
Society becomes polarized.

Facts are that Blacks don't generally have the same zest for hard work
as Whites do, and they have statistically a lower IQ (around 85 in the
U.K.). In the 2005 statistics, a black man is almost 9 times more
likely to commit a rape than a white man. This figure is chockingly
over the top. There is no point anymore in hiding these facts. It is
better to confront reality.

I would never treat a black person badly simply because I know these
facts. Racialism and facts about race aren't that strongly connected
as people think.

Mats
- .. -- Tim .-.
2010-07-15 07:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
On the other hand, if we avoid speaking about these matters, then we
let the extreme right wing monopolize the truth. This is very
dangerous. Society gets more and more polarized between airy-fairy
liberal-minded ideology and its opposite. It is never good, in the
long run, not to relate to truth.
Biologically, we are one species. I remain rather dubious about this theory
(for that's what it is) that some peoples in some areas benefitted from
inherited DNA from the Neanderthals. It just seems unlikely, considering
that Neanderthals were generally thought to be of *lower* intelligence than
Homo Sapiens, and were definitely less successful (for whatever reason) as
they have not survived. I suppose it might be argued that it enabled some
Homo Sapiens to develop larger brain-cases, enabling improved brain
development over time, but I am not likely to swallow this one
hook-line-and-sinker anytime soon, without further evidence.

There is of course no doubt that humans from various areas have differing
characteristics, as a result of natural selection. However, other factors
can cause differences than purely genetic ones. As Lance and others have
pointed out, prevalence of diseases, geographic barriers and so on can all
have strong influences on how successful a group of people might be.
Post by M Winther
People swing between the opposites. Not long ago overblown Aryan
ideals dominated, but now people can cohabit with any lowlife, and are
completely oblivious of differences. How about taking a sane middle
position, and stop swinging between the opposites? I think a naive
unconsciousness only paves the way for a comeback of Nazi ideals.
Society becomes polarized.
Well, it occurs to me that someone might think they are taking the middle
position, when actually they are closer to one of the poles than they
acknowledge. It is possible to (perhaps subconsciously) start with a biased
view, and then fit the observations to that view (that is, see what one
wants to see). For instance, if we observe differences in IQ (and
apparently, we do) between peoples of differing ethnic history, then we need
to go beyond simplicity and examine all avenues as to why that might be.
Not just jump on the first crackpot theory that comes along. The first
thing is, when we measure IQ, exactly *what* are we measuring? Is the test
a level playing-field, or do language and cultural barriers affect results?
Are we only measuring IQ through the lens of one particular culture's view
of what intelligence is and how it manifests? Those are just some of the
considerations. If, after that, we decide there ARE intelligence
differences, then what other factors might have caused them? Diseases may
be rife in some areas, that affect development of the foetus and infant.
Nutrition may be (and probably is) a key factor affecting development. Then
there are education and early-learning issues, all of which can be adversely
affected by lack of resources. Impaired development as a result might also
be passed on to offspring.
Post by M Winther
Facts are that Blacks don't generally have the same zest for hard work
as Whites do,
Do they have the same *access* to work? Were they disadvantaged in other
ways, such as in early development? Is this some form of learnt behaviour?
Post by M Winther
and they have statistically a lower IQ (around 85 in the
U.K.).
See above. It may not be due to genetics and ethnic history at all.
Post by M Winther
In the 2005 statistics, a black man is almost 9 times more
likely to commit a rape than a white man. This figure is chockingly
over the top. There is no point anymore in hiding these facts. It is
better to confront reality.
Assuming these are statistics relating to the UK (rather than world-wide)
and that they are correct, it does not follow that it is anything resulting
from their genetics intrinsically. It may be a result of many social and
cultural factors, and one would need to submit it to much more scrutiny and
lengthy study. Many factors could be involved.
Post by M Winther
I would never treat a black person badly simply because I know these
facts. Racialism and facts about race aren't that strongly connected
as people think.
I endeavor to treat all people with fairness and consideration. Indeed, I
don't consider people with a lower IQ to be in any sense inferior (I work
with people with learning difficulties), it is all a part of the rich
diversity of humanity. IMO if we identify certain groups of people as more
likely to commit particular crimes, then we need first of all to consider
what social and cultural pressures might be causing that, rather than jump
to the conclusion that their genetic make up means it is inevitable.

Tim.
Post by M Winther
Mats
Dave Smith
2010-07-15 08:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
On the other hand, if we avoid speaking about these matters, then we
let the extreme right wing monopolize the truth. This is very
dangerous. Society gets more and more polarized between airy-fairy
liberal-minded ideology and its opposite. It is never good, in the
long run, not to relate to truth.
Biologically, we are one species.  I remain rather dubious about this theory
(for that's what it is) that some peoples in some areas benefitted from
inherited DNA from the Neanderthals.  It just seems unlikely, considering
that Neanderthals were generally thought to be of *lower* intelligence than
Homo Sapiens, and were definitely less successful (for whatever reason) as
they have not survived.  I suppose it might be argued that it enabled some
Homo Sapiens to develop larger brain-cases, enabling improved brain
development over time, but I am not likely to swallow this one
hook-line-and-sinker anytime soon, without further evidence.
There is of course no doubt that humans from various areas have differing
characteristics, as a result of natural selection.  However, other factors
can cause differences than purely genetic ones.  As Lance and others have
pointed out, prevalence of diseases, geographic barriers and so on can all
have strong influences on how successful a group of people might be.
Post by M Winther
People swing between the opposites. Not long ago overblown Aryan
ideals dominated, but now people can cohabit with any lowlife, and are
completely oblivious of differences. How about taking a sane middle
position, and stop swinging between the opposites? I think a naive
unconsciousness only paves the way for a comeback of Nazi ideals.
Society becomes polarized.
Well, it occurs to me that someone might think they are taking the middle
position, when actually they are closer to one of the poles than they
acknowledge.  It is possible to (perhaps subconsciously) start with a biased
view, and then fit the observations to that view (that is, see what one
wants to see).  For instance, if we observe differences in IQ (and
apparently, we do) between peoples of differing ethnic history, then we need
to go beyond simplicity and examine all avenues as to why that might be.
Not just jump on the first crackpot theory that comes along.  The first
thing is, when we measure IQ, exactly *what* are we measuring?  Is the test
a level playing-field, or do language and cultural barriers affect results?
Are we only measuring IQ through the lens of one particular culture's view
of what intelligence is and how it manifests?  Those are just some of the
considerations.  If, after that, we decide there ARE intelligence
differences, then what other factors might have caused them?  Diseases may
be rife in some areas, that affect development of the foetus and infant.
Nutrition may be (and probably is) a key factor affecting development.  Then
there are education and early-learning issues, all of which can be adversely
affected by lack of resources.  Impaired development as a result might also
be passed on to offspring.
Post by M Winther
Facts are that Blacks don't generally have the same zest for hard work
as Whites do,
Do they have the same *access* to work?  Were they disadvantaged in other
ways, such as in early development?  Is this some form of learnt behaviour?
Post by M Winther
and they have statistically a lower IQ (around 85 in the
U.K.).
See above.  It may not be due to genetics and ethnic history at all.
Post by M Winther
In the 2005 statistics, a black man is almost 9 times more
likely to commit a rape than a white man. This figure is chockingly
over the top. There is no point anymore in hiding these facts. It is
better to confront reality.
Assuming these are statistics relating to the UK (rather than world-wide)
and that they are correct, it does not follow that it is anything resulting
from their genetics intrinsically.  It may be a result of many social and
cultural factors, and one would need to submit it to much more scrutiny and
lengthy study.  Many factors could be involved.
Post by M Winther
I would never treat a black person badly simply because I know these
facts. Racialism and facts about race aren't that strongly connected
as people think.
I endeavor to treat all people with fairness and consideration.  Indeed, I
don't consider people with a lower IQ to be in any sense inferior (I work
with people with learning difficulties), it is all a part of the rich
diversity of humanity.  IMO if we identify certain groups of people as more
likely to commit particular crimes, then we need first of all to consider
what social and cultural pressures might be causing that, rather than jump
to the conclusion that their genetic make up means it is inevitable.
Tim.
Post by M Winther
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I agree.

Dave Smith
M Winther
2010-07-15 11:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
On the other hand, if we avoid speaking about these matters, then we
let the extreme right wing monopolize the truth. This is very
dangerous. Society gets more and more polarized between airy-fairy
liberal-minded ideology and its opposite. It is never good, in the
long run, not to relate to truth.
Biologically, we are one species. I remain rather dubious about this theory (for that's what it is) that some peoples in some
areas benefitted from inherited DNA from the Neanderthals. It just seems unlikely, considering that Neanderthals were generally
thought to be of *lower* intelligence than Homo Sapiens, and were definitely less successful (for whatever reason) as they have
not survived. I suppose it might be argued that it enabled some Homo Sapiens to develop larger brain-cases, enabling improved
brain development over time, but I am not likely to swallow this one hook-line-and-sinker anytime soon, without further evidence.
There is of course no doubt that humans from various areas have differing characteristics, as a result of natural selection.
However, other factors can cause differences than purely genetic ones. As Lance and others have pointed out, prevalence of
diseases, geographic barriers and so on can all have strong influences on how successful a group of people might be.
Post by M Winther
People swing between the opposites. Not long ago overblown Aryan
ideals dominated, but now people can cohabit with any lowlife, and are
completely oblivious of differences. How about taking a sane middle
position, and stop swinging between the opposites? I think a naive
unconsciousness only paves the way for a comeback of Nazi ideals.
Society becomes polarized.
Well, it occurs to me that someone might think they are taking the middle position, when actually they are closer to one of the
poles than they acknowledge. It is possible to (perhaps subconsciously) start with a biased view, and then fit the observations
to that view (that is, see what one wants to see). For instance, if we observe differences in IQ (and apparently, we do) between
peoples of differing ethnic history, then we need to go beyond simplicity and examine all avenues as to why that might be. Not
just jump on the first crackpot theory that comes along. The first thing is, when we measure IQ, exactly *what* are we measuring?
Is the test a level playing-field, or do language and cultural barriers affect results? Are we only measuring IQ through the lens
of one particular culture's view of what intelligence is and how it manifests? Those are just some of the considerations. If,
after that, we decide there ARE intelligence differences, then what other factors might have caused them? Diseases may be rife in
some areas, that affect development of the foetus and infant. Nutrition may be (and probably is) a key factor affecting
development. Then there are education and early-learning issues, all of which can be adversely affected by lack of resources.
Impaired development as a result might also be passed on to offspring.
Post by M Winther
Facts are that Blacks don't generally have the same zest for hard work
as Whites do,
Do they have the same *access* to work? Were they disadvantaged in other ways, such as in early development? Is this some form
of learnt behaviour?
Post by M Winther
and they have statistically a lower IQ (around 85 in the
U.K.).
See above. It may not be due to genetics and ethnic history at all.
Post by M Winther
In the 2005 statistics, a black man is almost 9 times more
likely to commit a rape than a white man. This figure is chockingly
over the top. There is no point anymore in hiding these facts. It is
better to confront reality.
Assuming these are statistics relating to the UK (rather than world-wide) and that they are correct, it does not follow that it is
anything resulting from their genetics intrinsically. It may be a result of many social and cultural factors, and one would need
to submit it to much more scrutiny and lengthy study. Many factors could be involved.
Post by M Winther
I would never treat a black person badly simply because I know these
facts. Racialism and facts about race aren't that strongly connected
as people think.
I endeavor to treat all people with fairness and consideration. Indeed, I don't consider people with a lower IQ to be in any
sense inferior (I work with people with learning difficulties), it is all a part of the rich diversity of humanity. IMO if we
identify certain groups of people as more likely to commit particular crimes, then we need first of all to consider what social
and cultural pressures might be causing that, rather than jump to the conclusion that their genetic make up means it is
inevitable.
Tim.
Post by M Winther
Mats
I think you have a very lax attitude to this issue. You don't want to
dirty your hands. This is merely the easy way out in order to
avoid dealing with this dirty issue. One can always cast suspicion on
any standpoint by questioning how certain the facts are. People have
questioned the truth in the Holocaust, and there is not enough
evidence for the greenhouse effect, Darwinian evolution hasn't been
proved, etc. If a comet was heading toward earth you would only sit
there, arms crossed, and say that there is not enough evidence that
this comet is going to do any significant damage.

Mats
Dave Smith
2010-07-15 19:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
I think you have a very lax attitude to this issue. You don't want to
dirty your hands. This is merely the easy way out in order to
avoid dealing with this dirty issue. One can always cast suspicion on
any standpoint by questioning how certain the facts are. People have
questioned the truth in the Holocaust, and there is not enough
evidence for the greenhouse effect, Darwinian evolution hasn't been
proved, etc. If a comet was heading toward earth you would only sit
there, arms crossed, and say that there is not enough evidence that
this comet is going to do any significant damage.
"The moon is made of cheese."

"Are you sure?"

"One can always cast suspicion on
any standpoint by questioning how certain the facts are. People have
questioned the truth in the Holocaust, and there is not enough
evidence for the greenhouse effect, Darwinian evolution hasn't been
proved, etc. If a comet was heading toward earth you would only sit
there, arms crossed, and say that there is not enough evidence that
this comet is going to do any significant damage."

"You must be right, then -- the moon is made of cheese."


Dave Smith
- .. -- Tim .-.
2010-07-15 20:06:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
Post by M Winther
I think you have a very lax attitude to this issue. You don't want to
dirty your hands. This is merely the easy way out in order to
avoid dealing with this dirty issue. One can always cast suspicion on
any standpoint by questioning how certain the facts are. People have
questioned the truth in the Holocaust, and there is not enough
evidence for the greenhouse effect, Darwinian evolution hasn't been
proved, etc. If a comet was heading toward earth you would only sit
there, arms crossed, and say that there is not enough evidence that
this comet is going to do any significant damage.
"The moon is made of cheese."
"Are you sure?"
"One can always cast suspicion on
any standpoint by questioning how certain the facts are. People have
questioned the truth in the Holocaust, and there is not enough
evidence for the greenhouse effect, Darwinian evolution hasn't been
proved, etc. If a comet was heading toward earth you would only sit
there, arms crossed, and say that there is not enough evidence that
this comet is going to do any significant damage."
"You must be right, then -- the moon is made of cheese."
Dave Smith
Yes, thank you for that, Dave. I have concluded it is not worth responding
to M Winter any further, after that reply.

Tim.
M Winther
2010-07-16 04:56:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
"Insights into the Race Issue"
Abstract: Genetic research and statistical data have revealed
pronounced racial and ethnic differences. It is counter-productive to
sweep such facts under the carpet. The racial concept is still
relevant to the understanding of the human condition. While
liberal-minded people tend to repress their negative feelings toward
other ethnicities and refuse to acknowledge racial differences or
problems, an unconscious 'multicultural complex' develops. The extent
to which people react with indignation when presented with sterile
facts about race is proportionate to the strength of the unconscious
complex. There exists no other remedy than to bring facts into light,
facts which include considerable ethnic differences in IQ, and
upsetting interracial crime statistics. This is a moral burden that we
all must help to carry, including the worriment of the future prospect
of Western culture, in view of an ongoing mass immigration.
Keywords: ethnic IQ, crime statistics, the Other, multicultural
complex, unconscious racism, eugenics, Arabic reversal, mass
immigration
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/raceinsight.htm
Mats Winther
Yugoslavia is a warning example. Yugoslav tragedy came from the fact
that they weren't allowed to keep their cultural memory. They were
forced to adopt a socialist, multiculturalist, and collectivistic
identity. This caused an enormous destructive rebound. This is the
crisis we have before us in the Western world.

It is not the question that we should return to a Golden Age, it is about
survival. What I talk about is foremostly inner values, ways of
thought, ambition, intelligence, etc. Above all honesty! This is
losing out in today's hypocritical society. More and more people in
the Western world stop functioning as Westerners. The consequences are
obvious. The reason why the Western world has been so successful is
because people have functioned psychologically as Westerners. If they
turn to Arab ways, then society will regress. If people become like
sub- Saharan Africans then all is lost.

A nation will function as its inhabitants function mentally. Should we
replace people in all the offices in society, and put Somalians there
instead, then society will soon function as Somalia. Should we
institute Turks on these positions instead, society will become like
Turkey, i.e. still a functioning society, but much much tougher, with
honour killings and an enourmous inequity in society, disabled people
sitting in the street begging.

If the genetic characteristics of society changes, society will also
change. This is so obvious, but you prefer to turn a blind eye to it,
because you want to sleep well at night. You think only about yourself
and don't care for future generations.

Mats
LifeBinge
2010-07-16 23:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
If the genetic characteristics of society changes, society will also
change. This is so obvious, but you prefer to turn a blind eye to it,
because you want to sleep well at night. You think only about yourself
and don't care for future generations.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If the genetic characteristics of the society change, it has nothing
to do with the genetics has nothing to do with beliefs, If the
cultural characterics of society change, the society changes.. just
because Obama made president, doesnt mean they's all blacks down there
now or wannabe's... society may change based on his beleif/culture,
not on his genetics..

The more "devoloped" the society, the more poluted it becomes, these
"lesser" cultures have something western/europeon culture has lost
long ago, natual sustainability without parasitic/destructiv behavior
towards our home/earth, they live free.. we live by obedience,
Developed societies may be technologicaly advanced, but are also
spiritually lost.

Genetics has nothing to do with deciding the society's structure, its
the belief system, thier conditioning which is not derrived from
genetics but social development/experience.. You guys are obsessed
with the material/physical and forget about the other side of
things..

I agree that each race/people/culture should have their own land with
their own laws, but no people should have to restrict themselves to
locals based on race, culture on the other hand, keep it there, share
but do not impose, embrace. Western culture is bent on imposing and
is poluted beyond comprehension.. Which is the "Lesser culture"
Western or that of pure naturality.
M Winther
2010-07-17 03:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by LifeBinge
Post by M Winther
If the genetic characteristics of society changes, society will also
change. This is so obvious, but you prefer to turn a blind eye to it,
because you want to sleep well at night. You think only about yourself
and don't care for future generations.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If the genetic characteristics of the society change, it has nothing
to do with the genetics has nothing to do with beliefs, If the
cultural characterics of society change, the society changes.. just
because Obama made president, doesnt mean they's all blacks down there
now or wannabe's... society may change based on his beleif/culture,
not on his genetics..
The more "devoloped" the society, the more poluted it becomes, these
"lesser" cultures have something western/europeon culture has lost
long ago, natual sustainability without parasitic/destructiv behavior
towards our home/earth, they live free.. we live by obedience,
Developed societies may be technologicaly advanced, but are also
spiritually lost.
Genetics has nothing to do with deciding the society's structure, its
the belief system, thier conditioning which is not derrived from
genetics but social development/experience.. You guys are obsessed
with the material/physical and forget about the other side of
things..
I agree that each race/people/culture should have their own land with
their own laws, but no people should have to restrict themselves to
locals based on race, culture on the other hand, keep it there, share
but do not impose, embrace. Western culture is bent on imposing and
is poluted beyond comprehension.. Which is the "Lesser culture"
Western or that of pure naturality.
I think that race is more on the inside than on the outside. People
who think in terms of "racial purity" are only fixated on outside
characteristics, and accomplishments. But, of course, genetics always
plays a role. Blacks in the U.S. have, on average, 30% White
admixture, I believe. Their IQ averages 85. Sub-Saharan Blacks average
71-75, which is significantly lower.

So, if a white person marries a black person, he/she should know that
the children are likely to be less intelligent than if he/she marries
a white person. It is only fair that they should know this. It doesn't
matter if the Black person is intelligent. Due to the law of
regression the children will tend towards average IQ. Why should we
withhold such information? In all other circumstances it would be
regarded a scandal if authorities withheld the information that
children will become less intelligent. It also has a bearing on the
future economical success of the nations. Average IQ is coupled to BNP
per capita (Lynn & Vanhanen). In fact, our civilization is dependent
on intelligent people who will come up with new solution to the energy
problem, environmental problems, etc. If we put our valuable gentic
advantages to waste, it might prove devastating.

In my article "An Intrusion of Matriarchal Consciousness" I argue
that..."Broadly speaking, there is in the "white" culture a strife
toward higher accomplishment, an advancement of consciousness, a
movement of emancipation. But among certain ethnic groups one can
detect a general movement toward the other end, namely to belong in an
unconscious community, to swim with the tide. The psychic gradients, I
would argue, go in different directions."
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm

Mats
Dave Smith
2010-07-17 10:40:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by LifeBinge
Post by M Winther
If the genetic characteristics of society changes, society will also
change. This is so obvious, but you prefer to turn a blind eye to it,
because you want to sleep well at night. You think only about yourself
and don't care for future generations.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If the genetic characteristics of the society change, it has nothing
to do with the genetics has nothing to do with beliefs, If the
cultural characterics of society change, the society changes.. just
because Obama made president, doesnt mean they's all blacks down there
now or wannabe's... society may change based on his beleif/culture,
not on his genetics..
The more "devoloped" the society, the more poluted it becomes, these
"lesser" cultures have something western/europeon culture has lost
long ago, natual sustainability without parasitic/destructiv behavior
towards our home/earth, they live free.. we live by obedience,
Developed societies may be technologicaly advanced, but are also
spiritually lost.
Genetics has nothing to do with deciding the society's structure, its
the belief system, thier conditioning which is not derrived from
genetics but social development/experience.. You guys are obsessed
with the material/physical and forget about the other side of
things..
I agree that each race/people/culture should have their own land with
their own laws, but no people should have to restrict themselves to
locals based on race, culture on the other hand, keep it there, share
but do not impose, embrace.  Western culture is bent on imposing and
is poluted beyond comprehension.. Which is the "Lesser culture"
Western or that of pure naturality.
I think that race is more on the inside than on the outside. People
who think in terms of "racial purity" are only fixated on outside
characteristics, and accomplishments. But, of course, genetics always
plays a role. Blacks in the U.S. have, on average, 30% White
admixture, I believe. Their IQ averages 85. Sub-Saharan Blacks average
71-75, which is significantly lower.
So, if a white person marries a black person, he/she should know that
the children are likely to be less intelligent than if he/she marries
a white person. It is only fair that they should know this. It doesn't
matter if the Black person is intelligent. Due to the law of
regression the children will tend towards average IQ. Why should we
withhold such information? In all other circumstances it would be
regarded a scandal if authorities withheld the information that
children will become less intelligent. It also has a bearing on the
future economical success of the nations. Average IQ is coupled to BNP
per capita (Lynn & Vanhanen). In fact, our civilization is dependent
on intelligent people who will come up with new solution to the energy
problem, environmental problems, etc. If we put our valuable gentic
advantages to waste, it might prove devastating.
In my article "An Intrusion of Matriarchal Consciousness" I argue
that..."Broadly speaking, there is in the "white" culture a strife
toward higher accomplishment, an advancement of consciousness, a
movement of emancipation. But among certain ethnic groups one can
detect a general movement toward the other end, namely to belong in an
unconscious community, to swim with the tide. The psychic gradients, I
would argue, go in different directions."http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm puzzled by your reference to a 'law of regression'. I vaguely
know about regression to the mean, but understand it to be an effect
which would apply regardless of race.

How do you account for the Flynn effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect


Dave Smith
M Winther
2010-07-17 14:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
Post by M Winther
Post by LifeBinge
Post by M Winther
If the genetic characteristics of society changes, society will also
change. This is so obvious, but you prefer to turn a blind eye to it,
because you want to sleep well at night. You think only about yourself
and don't care for future generations.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If the genetic characteristics of the society change, it has nothing
to do with the genetics has nothing to do with beliefs, If the
cultural characterics of society change, the society changes.. just
because Obama made president, doesnt mean they's all blacks down there
now or wannabe's... society may change based on his beleif/culture,
not on his genetics..
The more "devoloped" the society, the more poluted it becomes, these
"lesser" cultures have something western/europeon culture has lost
long ago, natual sustainability without parasitic/destructiv behavior
towards our home/earth, they live free.. we live by obedience,
Developed societies may be technologicaly advanced, but are also
spiritually lost.
Genetics has nothing to do with deciding the society's structure, its
the belief system, thier conditioning which is not derrived from
genetics but social development/experience.. You guys are obsessed
with the material/physical and forget about the other side of
things..
I agree that each race/people/culture should have their own land with
their own laws, but no people should have to restrict themselves to
locals based on race, culture on the other hand, keep it there, share
but do not impose, embrace. Western culture is bent on imposing and
is poluted beyond comprehension.. Which is the "Lesser culture"
Western or that of pure naturality.
I think that race is more on the inside than on the outside. People
who think in terms of "racial purity" are only fixated on outside
characteristics, and accomplishments. But, of course, genetics always
plays a role. Blacks in the U.S. have, on average, 30% White
admixture, I believe. Their IQ averages 85. Sub-Saharan Blacks average
71-75, which is significantly lower.
So, if a white person marries a black person, he/she should know that
the children are likely to be less intelligent than if he/she marries
a white person. It is only fair that they should know this. It doesn't
matter if the Black person is intelligent. Due to the law of
regression the children will tend towards average IQ. Why should we
withhold such information? In all other circumstances it would be
regarded a scandal if authorities withheld the information that
children will become less intelligent. It also has a bearing on the
future economical success of the nations. Average IQ is coupled to BNP
per capita (Lynn & Vanhanen). In fact, our civilization is dependent
on intelligent people who will come up with new solution to the energy
problem, environmental problems, etc. If we put our valuable gentic
advantages to waste, it might prove devastating.
In my article "An Intrusion of Matriarchal Consciousness" I argue
that..."Broadly speaking, there is in the "white" culture a strife
toward higher accomplishment, an advancement of consciousness, a
movement of emancipation. But among certain ethnic groups one can
detect a general movement toward the other end, namely to belong in an
unconscious community, to swim with the tide. The psychic gradients, I
would argue, go in different directions."http:>home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm puzzled by your reference to a 'law of regression'. I vaguely
know about regression to the mean, but understand it to be an effect
which would apply regardless of race.
How do you account for the Flynn effect?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
Dave Smith
The regression to the mean is relevant to all races. American Blacks
regress to their average, 85, whereas Whites regress to their average,
100 (cf. Rushton).

The Flynn effect implies that IQ has increased somewhat over the
generations from the 1950s onwards. But this development peaks at a
certain figure. It has peaked in UK and in Denmark. I suppose that all
nations have a certain top IQ potential that can be reached with
better nutrition and schooling, etc. Epigenetics could play a role.
Anyway, IQ peaks at a certain figure. The IQ differential between the
races remains largely the same, I guess. But these questions must be
answered by an expert.

Mats
Dave Smith
2010-07-17 21:46:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by M Winther
Post by LifeBinge
Post by M Winther
If the genetic characteristics of society changes, society will also
change. This is so obvious, but you prefer to turn a blind eye to it,
because you want to sleep well at night. You think only about yourself
and don't care for future generations.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If the genetic characteristics of the society change, it has nothing
to do with the genetics has nothing to do with beliefs, If the
cultural characterics of society change, the society changes.. just
because Obama made president, doesnt mean they's all blacks down there
now or wannabe's... society may change based on his beleif/culture,
not on his genetics..
The more "devoloped" the society, the more poluted it becomes, these
"lesser" cultures have something western/europeon culture has lost
long ago, natual sustainability without parasitic/destructiv behavior
towards our home/earth, they live free.. we live by obedience,
Developed societies may be technologicaly advanced, but are also
spiritually lost.
Genetics has nothing to do with deciding the society's structure, its
the belief system, thier conditioning which is not derrived from
genetics but social development/experience.. You guys are obsessed
with the material/physical and forget about the other side of
things..
I agree that each race/people/culture should have their own land with
their own laws, but no people should have to restrict themselves to
locals based on race, culture on the other hand, keep it there, share
but do not impose, embrace. Western culture is bent on imposing and
is poluted beyond comprehension.. Which is the "Lesser culture"
Western or that of pure naturality.
I think that race is more on the inside than on the outside. People
who think in terms of "racial purity" are only fixated on outside
characteristics, and accomplishments. But, of course, genetics always
plays a role. Blacks in the U.S. have, on average, 30% White
admixture, I believe. Their IQ averages 85. Sub-Saharan Blacks average
71-75, which is significantly lower.
So, if a white person marries a black person, he/she should know that
the children are likely to be less intelligent than if he/she marries
a white person. It is only fair that they should know this. It doesn't
matter if the Black person is intelligent. Due to the law of
regression the children will tend towards average IQ. Why should we
withhold such information? In all other circumstances it would be
regarded a scandal if authorities withheld the information that
children will become less intelligent. It also has a bearing on the
future economical success of the nations. Average IQ is coupled to BNP
per capita (Lynn & Vanhanen). In fact, our civilization is dependent
on intelligent people who will come up with new solution to the energy
problem, environmental problems, etc. If we put our valuable gentic
advantages to waste, it might prove devastating.
In my article "An Intrusion of Matriarchal Consciousness" I argue
that..."Broadly speaking, there is in the "white" culture a strife
toward higher accomplishment, an advancement of consciousness, a
movement of emancipation. But among certain ethnic groups one can
detect a general movement toward the other end, namely to belong in an
unconscious community, to swim with the tide. The psychic gradients, I
would argue, go in different directions."http:>home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm puzzled by your reference to a 'law of regression'.  I vaguely
know about regression to the mean, but understand it to be an effect
which would apply regardless of race.
How do you account for the Flynn effect?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
Dave Smith
The regression to the mean is relevant to all races. American Blacks
regress to their average, 85, whereas Whites regress to their average,
100 (cf. Rushton).
The Flynn effect implies that IQ has increased somewhat over the
generations from the 1950s onwards. But this development peaks at a
certain figure. It has peaked in UK and in Denmark. I suppose that all
nations have a certain top IQ potential that can be reached with
better nutrition and schooling, etc. Epigenetics could play a role.
Anyway, IQ peaks at a certain figure. The IQ differential between the
races remains largely the same, I guess. But these questions must be
answered by an expert.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Yes, but the experts produce different answers, so firm conclusions
perhaps are unjustified at present. I found this discussion of
regression to the mean helpful:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2002-02/1013725291.Ge.r.html


The wikipedia article on the inheritance of IQ also seems useful. The
point made about heritability within and between groups is worth
noting I think:


"Although IQ differences between individuals are shown to have a large
genetic component, it does not automatically follow that mean group-
level disparities (between-group differences) in IQ can be assumed to
have a genetic basis. An analogy, attributed to Richard Lewontin,[76]
illustrates this point:

"Suppose two handfuls are taken from a sack containing a genetically
diverse variety of corn, and each grown under carefully controlled and
standardized conditions, except that one batch is lacking in certain
nutrients that are supplied to the other. After several weeks, the
plants are measured. There is variability of growth within each batch,
due to the genetic variability of the corn. Given that the growing
conditions are closely controlled, nearly all the variation in the
height of the plants within a batch will be due to differences in
their genes. Thus, within populations, heritabilities will be very
high. Nevertheless, the difference between the two groups is due
entirely to an environmental factor - differential nutrition. Lewontin
didn't go so far as to have the one set of pots painted white and the
other set black, but you get the idea. The point of the example, in
any case, is that the causes of between-group differences may in
principle be quite different from the causes of within-group variation.
[77]

"However, differences in IQ between reportedly discrete genetic groups
has been observed, and some researchers, such as Arthur Jensen,
maintain that environmental differences are too small to account for
these differences. They propose that therefore genetic differences
must provide the primary explanation.[78] James Flynn spends much of
his book What Is Intelligence rebutting Jensen's argument.

"The issue of observed between-group IQ differences is controversial
vis-a-vis considerations on both the nature of race and the meaning
and measurement of intelligence.[79][80][81][82][83][19] Important
related questions include whether intelligence can be accurately
described by a single number, and whether the nature of intelligence
is the same across cultures.[84] "


I've just ordered the book by Flynn to see what he has to say.

Dave Smith
Peter Brooks
2010-07-17 22:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
whether the nature of intelligence
is the same across cultures.[84] "
Now that's an interesting question.

I wonder how it could be different. I'd have thought, to some extent,
that the nature of intelligence, or much of it, is the same across
species. Anybody who has known dogs will know that some are an awful
lot brighter than others, and, since they've co-evolved with humans,
their way of thinking seems quite approachable and understandable.

The intelligence of an octopus, alien as their brains clearly are,
also seems pretty similar to that of humans - the stories of them
squirting water at lights that annoy them at night suggests to me a
mind of much the same cast as mine when some bastard parks me in.
Dave Smith
2010-07-17 22:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Brooks
Post by Dave Smith
is the same across cultures.[84] "
Now that's an interesting question.
I wonder how it could be different. I'd have thought, to some extent,
that the nature of intelligence, or much of it, is the same across
species. Anybody who has known dogs will know that some are an awful
lot brighter than others, and, since they've co-evolved with humans,
their way of thinking seems quite approachable and understandable.
The intelligence of an octopus, alien as their brains clearly are,
also seems pretty similar to that of humans - the stories of them
squirting water at lights that annoy them at night suggests to me a
mind of much the same cast as mine when some bastard parks me in.
The nature of problems typically faced and the tools available to
respond to them constructively, might vary between cultures. In the
Australian outback an Aborigine might be a more helpful companion than
a history professor. Some languages might be more sophisticated than
others and shape thought in a different way. Surely education is
important even when the intellectual potential is there, and varies
between cultures ?

Dave Smith
Lance
2010-07-17 23:35:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
Post by Peter Brooks
Post by Dave Smith
is the same across cultures.[84] "
Now that's an interesting question.
I wonder how it could be different. I'd have thought, to some extent,
that the nature of intelligence, or much of it, is the same across
species. Anybody who has known dogs will know that some are an awful
lot brighter than others, and, since they've co-evolved with humans,
their way of thinking seems quite approachable and understandable.
The intelligence of an octopus, alien as their brains clearly are,
also seems pretty similar to that of humans - the stories of them
squirting water at lights that annoy them at night suggests to me a
mind of much the same cast as mine when some bastard parks me in.
The nature of problems typically faced and the tools available to
respond to them constructively, might vary between cultures.  In the
Australian outback an Aborigine might be a more helpful companion than
a history professor.  Some languages might be more sophisticated than
others and shape thought in a different way.  Surely education is
important even when the intellectual potential is there,  and varies
between cultures ?
Dave Smith
The very notion of "crystallized" intelligence (which is widely
considered to be a major component of human intelligence) also
suggests that intelligence will differ greatly between cultures.

Since Octopi don't have cultures they can only be assessed in terms of
fluid intelligence.

Lance
Lance
2010-07-17 23:32:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Brooks
Post by Dave Smith
is the same across cultures.[84] "
Now that's an interesting question.
I wonder how it could be different. I'd have thought, to some extent,
that the nature of intelligence, or much of it, is the same across
species. Anybody who has known dogs will know that some are an awful
lot brighter than others, and, since they've co-evolved with humans,
their way of thinking seems quite approachable and understandable.
The intelligence of an octopus, alien as their brains clearly are,
also seems pretty similar to that of humans - the stories of them
squirting water at lights that annoy them at night suggests to me a
mind of much the same cast as mine when some bastard parks me in.
Something that bears upon the issue:

http://www.ns.umich.edu/Releases/2003/Feb03/r022703a.html

Lance
Dave Smith
2010-07-18 08:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
http://www.ns.umich.edu/Releases/2003/Feb03/r022703a.html
Interesting, thanks -- Dave Smith.
brad herschel
2010-07-21 17:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Bottam line, negroes and spanish-speaking mestizoes are unsuited for
successful living in a hi-tech
society. They simply cannot compete. It is not "racism" that keeps
them out of jobs, it is their noticeable
inability to reason abstractly. We would be better off paying them to
be spayed or neutered.
Dave Smith
2010-07-21 21:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by brad herschel
Bottam line, negroes and spanish-speaking mestizoes are unsuited for
successful living in a hi-tech
society. They simply cannot compete. It is not "racism" that keeps
them out of jobs, it is their noticeable
inability to reason abstractly. We would be better off paying them to
be spayed or neutered.
Read James Flynn's book "What is Intelligence?". Because some people
haven't learnt to think abstractly, doesn't imply that they can't
learn to think abstractly. Probably your own grandparents or great
grandparents would have obtained low scores on tests requiring
abstract rather than concrete thinking. Perhaps you would argue that
they should have been spayed or castrated ?

Dave Smith
M Winther
2010-07-22 04:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
Post by brad herschel
Bottam line, negroes and spanish-speaking mestizoes are unsuited for
successful living in a hi-tech
society. They simply cannot compete. It is not "racism" that keeps
them out of jobs, it is their noticeable
inability to reason abstractly. We would be better off paying them to
be spayed or neutered.
Read James Flynn's book "What is Intelligence?". Because some people
haven't learnt to think abstractly, doesn't imply that they can't
learn to think abstractly. Probably your own grandparents or great
grandparents would have obtained low scores on tests requiring
abstract rather than concrete thinking. Perhaps you would argue that
they should have been spayed or castrated ?
Dave Smith
Somalis living in my country have all the time in the world to learn
to think abstractly. They are the greatest immigrant group. At least
25% won't make it through the nine-year school. At least 80% are
unemployed. It's time to accept that differences are insurmountable.

Mats
Dave Smith
2010-07-22 20:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by brad herschel
Bottam line, negroes and spanish-speaking mestizoes are unsuited for
successful living in a hi-tech
society. They simply cannot compete. It is not "racism" that keeps
them out of jobs, it is their noticeable
inability to reason abstractly. We would be better off paying them to
be spayed or neutered.
Read James Flynn's book "What is Intelligence?".   Because some people
haven't learnt to think abstractly, doesn't imply that they can't
learn to think abstractly.  Probably your own grandparents or great
grandparents would have obtained low scores on tests requiring
abstract rather than concrete thinking.  Perhaps you would argue that
they should have been spayed or castrated ?
Dave Smith
Somalis living in my country have all the time in the world to learn
to think abstractly. They are the greatest immigrant group. At least
25% won't make it through the nine-year school. At least 80% are
unemployed. It's time to accept that differences are insurmountable.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If your ancestors and mine have changed the way they think over a few
decades, as the Flynn effect indicates, then such a negative
conclusion doesn't seem warranted. It might be better to study factors
such as cognitive stimulation, nutrition, attitudes of parents and
peers, and so on, to see whether the Somalis are disadvantaged in
some relevant way.

Dave Smith
M Winther
2010-07-23 03:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
Post by M Winther
Post by brad herschel
Bottam line, negroes and spanish-speaking mestizoes are unsuited for
successful living in a hi-tech
society. They simply cannot compete. It is not "racism" that keeps
them out of jobs, it is their noticeable
inability to reason abstractly. We would be better off paying them to
be spayed or neutered.
Read James Flynn's book "What is Intelligence?". Because some people
haven't learnt to think abstractly, doesn't imply that they can't
learn to think abstractly. Probably your own grandparents or great
grandparents would have obtained low scores on tests requiring
abstract rather than concrete thinking. Perhaps you would argue that
they should have been spayed or castrated ?
Dave Smith
Somalis living in my country have all the time in the world to learn
to think abstractly. They are the greatest immigrant group. At least
25% won't make it through the nine-year school. At least 80% are
unemployed. It's time to accept that differences are insurmountable.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If your ancestors and mine have changed the way they think over a few
decades, as the Flynn effect indicates, then such a negative
conclusion doesn't seem warranted. It might be better to study factors
such as cognitive stimulation, nutrition, attitudes of parents and
peers, and so on, to see whether the Somalis are disadvantaged in
some relevant way.
Dave Smith
Blacks have lived in the U.S. for many centuries. They are still
hugely disadvantaged, despite having increased their IQ to 85 du to a
30% White genetic admixture.

Certain ethnic groups tend to put much emphasis on the microsocial
perspective, and the individual is to a great extent carried by the
collective.

This social principle seems to imply that there is a weaker impetus
toward individual emancipation. The foremost principle is instead to
be carried by the collective, as opposed to having ambitions and to
journey somewhere in life.

So it all depends on hereditary factors.

Mats
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/
Peter Brooks
2010-07-23 08:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
hugely disadvantaged, despite having increased their IQ to 85
On the subject of intelligence, you appear not to have understood
Lance's comment:

"
Engineers commonly check the validity of claims with "back of the
envelop" calculations looking to see whether results are in
reasonable
agreement with other known facts. I think a little thought soon shows
that the claims about African IQs being so low either invalidate the
IQ measure as a useful measure in Africa (because Africans are not
all
institutionalized and unable to learn to tie their shoe laces or
struggle to master simple tasks) or suggest that the data is suspect.
"

Lance did suggest that it would take a 'little thought' to see the
problem, but that seems to have been more than you had at your
disposal.

Could there perhaps be some inverse relationship between people who
hold racist views and their intelligence?
M Winther
2010-07-23 13:07:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Brooks
Post by M Winther
hugely disadvantaged, despite having increased their IQ to 85
On the subject of intelligence, you appear not to have understood
"
Engineers commonly check the validity of claims with "back of the
envelop" calculations looking to see whether results are in
reasonable
agreement with other known facts. I think a little thought soon shows
that the claims about African IQs being so low either invalidate the
IQ measure as a useful measure in Africa (because Africans are not
all
institutionalized and unable to learn to tie their shoe laces or
struggle to master simple tasks) or suggest that the data is suspect.
"
Lance did suggest that it would take a 'little thought' to see the
problem, but that seems to have been more than you had at your
disposal.
Could there perhaps be some inverse relationship between people who
hold racist views and their intelligence?
There is nothing wrong with my intelligence. I make the empirical
observation that Blacks are disadvantaged everywhere in the world.
I read books by Rushton, Lynn, Peter Watson, etc., and nobody
questions that Blacks, everywhere, have lower IQ. The point of
contention is what it depends on. Regardless, this must mean that
Blacks are at a disadvantage in modern society (but not in my country
because we have such a strong welfare system).

Maybe all these scientists have hoodwinked me and made me believe
that there exists a pronounced racial IQ differential. It is possible that
I have been fooled. But you will have to pinpoint the errors in their
research to make me change opinion in this matter.

Mats
Peter Brooks
2010-07-23 22:39:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
There is nothing wrong with my intelligence.
Thank you, Mat, for your protestation. I'm now convinced, by your
evidence that there is indeed nothing 'wrong' with your intelligence -
after all, you can both write and read.

Nobody here, though, has made any suggestion that there was anything
wrong with your intelligence - I think you'll find that it was only
the level of it that anybody wondered about. You've not disputed that,
so I'm happy to conclude this discussion.
Dave Smith
2010-07-23 23:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
There is nothing wrong with my intelligence. I make the empirical
observation that Blacks are disadvantaged everywhere in the world.
I read books by Rushton, Lynn, Peter Watson, etc., and nobody
questions that Blacks, everywhere, have lower IQ. The point of
contention is what it depends on. Regardless, this must mean that
Blacks are at a disadvantage in modern society (but not in my country
because we have such a strong welfare system).
Maybe all these scientists have hoodwinked me and made me believe
that there exists a pronounced racial IQ differential. It is possible that
I have been fooled. But you will have to pinpoint the errors in their
research to make me change opinion in this matter.
Your opinion seems to be that differences in IQ, whether within
groups or between groups, are largely genetically determined. If so,
why have scores on IQ tests increased so considerably over a matter of
a few decades?

Dave Smith
M Winther
2010-07-24 08:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
Post by M Winther
There is nothing wrong with my intelligence. I make the empirical
observation that Blacks are disadvantaged everywhere in the world.
I read books by Rushton, Lynn, Peter Watson, etc., and nobody
questions that Blacks, everywhere, have lower IQ. The point of
contention is what it depends on. Regardless, this must mean that
Blacks are at a disadvantage in modern society (but not in my country
because we have such a strong welfare system).
Maybe all these scientists have hoodwinked me and made me believe
that there exists a pronounced racial IQ differential. It is possible that
I have been fooled. But you will have to pinpoint the errors in their
research to make me change opinion in this matter.
Your opinion seems to be that differences in IQ, whether within
groups or between groups, are largely genetically determined. If so,
why have scores on IQ tests increased so considerably over a matter of
a few decades?
Dave Smith
Not that much, and they peak after a while anyway, as has occurred in
Denmark and in U.K. It is probably coupled with nutritional factors etc.,
which have improved since the fifties. A nation reaches its potential
under good living circumstances. The relative differences between races
are maintained, it seems.

Mats
Lance
2010-07-24 10:06:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by M Winther
There is nothing wrong with my intelligence. I make the empirical
observation that Blacks are disadvantaged everywhere in the world.
I read books by Rushton, Lynn, Peter Watson, etc., and nobody
questions that Blacks, everywhere, have lower IQ. The point of
contention is what it depends on. Regardless, this must mean that
Blacks are at a disadvantage in modern society (but not in my country
because we have such a strong welfare system).
Maybe all these scientists have hoodwinked me and made me believe
that there exists a pronounced racial IQ differential. It is possible that
I have been fooled. But you will have to pinpoint the errors in their
research to make me change opinion in this matter.
Your opinion seems to be that differences in IQ,  whether within
groups or between groups,  are largely genetically determined.  If so,
why have scores on IQ tests increased so considerably over a matter of
a few decades?
Dave Smith
Not that much, and they peak after a while anyway, as has occurred in
Denmark and in U.K. It is probably coupled with nutritional factors etc.,
which have improved since the fifties. A nation reaches its potential
under good living circumstances. The relative differences between races
are maintained, it seems.
Mats
You are impervious to argument I think. The instability in population
scores means that comparisons across populations can't be made. A
basic requirement of a measurement instrument is that it gives the
same reading each time it is applied to the same object. So if I
measure the table with a tape measure and get 2 meters today and if I
measure it again tomorrow and get 2.3 meters then I would be ill
advised to buy a table cloth based on the first measurement. The tape
measure is unreliable. Similarly if I measure average Dutch IQ today
and I get 100 as the average, and then I measure average Dutch IQ
tomorrow and get 120 as the average, then I would be ill advised to
compared the first or the second Ducth IQ measure with another
population. The measure is unstable, unreliable. So the entire
comparison across populations is false! (Note the drop in IQ scores
doesn't mean they have "peaked" - to prove that you would need
measurements taken far into the future. Further they have not
stabilised - they are declining - so instability (ergo unreliability)
is again clearly demonstrated. So the comparisons are just nonsense.
Period.

I don't expect you to agree - I think you are so consumed with dislike
of your Somali neighbours that you are just looking for any argument
that can permit you to belittle them. Ah well,

Cheers

Lance

Lance
Peter Brooks
2010-07-24 13:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
I don't expect you to agree - I think you are so consumed with dislike
of your Somali neighbours that you are just looking for any argument
that can permit you to belittle them. Ah well,
Maybe they're taller than him.
Dave Smith
2010-07-24 22:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by M Winther
There is nothing wrong with my intelligence. I make the empirical
observation that Blacks are disadvantaged everywhere in the world.
I read books by Rushton, Lynn, Peter Watson, etc., and nobody
questions that Blacks, everywhere, have lower IQ. The point of
contention is what it depends on. Regardless, this must mean that
Blacks are at a disadvantage in modern society (but not in my country
because we have such a strong welfare system).
Maybe all these scientists have hoodwinked me and made me believe
that there exists a pronounced racial IQ differential. It is possible that
I have been fooled. But you will have to pinpoint the errors in their
research to make me change opinion in this matter.
Your opinion seems to be that differences in IQ,  whether within
groups or between groups,  are largely genetically determined.  If so,
why have scores on IQ tests increased so considerably over a matter of
a few decades?
Dave Smith
Not that much, and they peak after a while anyway, as has occurred in
Denmark and in U.K. It is probably coupled with nutritional factors etc.,
which have improved since the fifties. A nation reaches its potential
under good living circumstances. The relative differences between races
are maintained, it seems.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
With a rise of the order of 3 points per decade, then in half a
century there is a rise of 1 standard deviation. That seems pretty
large to me and rather an embarassment for those who wish to exclude
environmental factors. Abstract reasoning is required to do well on
the tasks showing most increase, so the spread of scientific thinking
might be a contributory factor, as well as better nutrition, health
and so forth. My prediction is that 'the Flynn effect' will continue
in the 'developing' countries and that IQ differences between ethnic
groups will decrease with a more level 'playing field' and a blending
of cultures.

Dave Smith
M Winther
2010-07-26 03:58:49 UTC
Permalink
The Flynn effect has already peaked in many Western countries. American
Blacks have peaked long ago at IQ 85. This religious belief in everybody's
equal
capacities is ridiculous. If it's not the Master Race, then it's The
Glorious
Egalitarian Unity of Mankind. Soon people will drop back to madness
racialism.
So it goes, back and forth, simply because people refuse to settle at a
balanced
viewpoint.

Mats
Post by M Winther
Post by M Winther
There is nothing wrong with my intelligence. I make the empirical
observation that Blacks are disadvantaged everywhere in the world.
I read books by Rushton, Lynn, Peter Watson, etc., and nobody
questions that Blacks, everywhere, have lower IQ. The point of
contention is what it depends on. Regardless, this must mean that
Blacks are at a disadvantage in modern society (but not in my country
because we have such a strong welfare system).
Maybe all these scientists have hoodwinked me and made me believe
that there exists a pronounced racial IQ differential. It is possible that
I have been fooled. But you will have to pinpoint the errors in their
research to make me change opinion in this matter.
Your opinion seems to be that differences in IQ, whether within
groups or between groups, are largely genetically determined. If so,
why have scores on IQ tests increased so considerably over a matter of
a few decades?
Dave Smith
Not that much, and they peak after a while anyway, as has occurred in
Denmark and in U.K. It is probably coupled with nutritional factors etc.,
which have improved since the fifties. A nation reaches its potential
under good living circumstances. The relative differences between races
are maintained, it seems.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
With a rise of the order of 3 points per decade, then in half a
century there is a rise of 1 standard deviation. That seems pretty
large to me and rather an embarassment for those who wish to exclude
environmental factors. Abstract reasoning is required to do well on
the tasks showing most increase, so the spread of scientific thinking
might be a contributory factor, as well as better nutrition, health
and so forth. My prediction is that 'the Flynn effect' will continue
in the 'developing' countries and that IQ differences between ethnic
groups will decrease with a more level 'playing field' and a blending
of cultures.

Dave Smith
Dave Smith
2010-07-26 10:38:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
The Flynn effect has already peaked in many Western countries. American
Blacks have peaked long ago at IQ 85................
The point is that an IQ of 85 in 2000 reflected a very different
performance than did an IQ of 85 in 1950.
Post by M Winther
This religious belief in everybody's
equal
capacities is ridiculous. If it's not the Master Race, then it's The
Glorious
Egalitarian Unity of Mankind. Soon people will drop back to madness
racialism.
So it goes, back and forth, simply because people refuse to settle at a
balanced
viewpoint.
Why do you think that your viewpoint is balanced? It seems to me that
you identify with the views of Jensen/Rushton/Lynn etc and reject or
don't even consider the views of Flynn/Dickens/Nisbett etc. I don't
think firm conclusions are justified given the limitations of our
present knowledge -- even the basic concepts of intelligence and race
can not be clearly defined and measured. I think the conclusions of
an American task force, published some years ago, are appropriately
cautious and judicious:


http://www.psych.illinois.edu/~broberts/Neisser%20et%20al,%201996,%20intelligence.pdf

Because there are many ways to be intelligent, there are
also many conceptualizations of intelligence. The most
influential approach, and the one that has generated the
most systematic research, is based on psychometric testing.
This tradition has produced a substantial body of
knowledge, though many questions remain unanswered.
We know much less about the forms of intelligence that
tests do not easily assess: wisdom, creativity, practical
knowledge, social skill, and the like.
Psychometricians have successfully measured a wide
range of abilities, distinct from one another and yet intercorrelated.
The complex relations among those abilities
can be described in many ways. Some theorists focus on
the variance that all such abilities have in common, which
Spearman termed g ("general intelligence"); others prefer
to describe the same manifold with a set of partially independent
factors; still others opt for a multifactorial description
with factors hierarchically arranged and something
like g at the top. Standardized intelligence test scores
("IQs"), which reflect a person's standing in relation to
his or her age cohort, are based on tests that tap a number
of different abilities. Recent studies have found that these
scores are also correlated with information processing
speed in certain experimental paradigms (choice reaction
time, inspection time, evoked brain potentials, etc.), but
the meaning of those correlations is far from clear.
Intelligence test scores predict individual differences
in school achievement moderately well, correlating about
.50 with grade point average and .55 with the number of
years of education that individuals complete. In this context
the skills measured by tests are clearly important.
Nevertheless, population levels of school achievement are
not determined solely or even primarily by intelligence
or any other individual-difference variable. The fact that
children in Japan and Taiwan learn much more mathematics
than their peers in America, for example, can be
attributed primarily to differences in culture and schooling
rather than in abilities measured by intelligence tests.
Test scores also correlate with measures of accomplishment
outside of school, e.g., with adult occupational
status. To some extent those correlations result directly
from the tests' link with school achievement and from
their roles as "gatekeepers." In the United States today,
high test scores and grades are prerequisites for entry into
many careers and professions. This is not quite the whole
story, however: a significant correlation between psychometric
intelligence and occupational status remains even
when measures of education and family background have
been statistically controlled. There are also modest (negative)
correlations between intelligence test scores and
certain undesirable behaviors such as juvenile crime.
Those correlations are necessarily low: all social outcomes
result from complex causal webs in which psychometric
skills are only one factor.
Like every trait, intelligence is the joint product of
genetic and environmental variables. Gene action always
involves a (biochemical or social) environment; environments
always act via structures to which genes have contributed.
Given a trait on which individuals vary, however,
one can ask what fraction of that variation is associated
with differences in their genotypes (this is the heritability
of the trait) as well as what fraction is associated with
differences in environmental experience. So defined, heritability
(h a) can and does vary from one population to
another. In the case of IQ, h 2 is markedly lower for children
(about .45) than for adults (about .75). This means
that as children grow up, differences in test scores tend
increasingly to reflect differences in genotype and in individual
life experience rather than differences among the
families in which they were raised.
The factors underlying that shift--and more generally
the pathways by which genes make their undoubted
contributions to individual differences in intelligence--
are largely unknown. Moreover, the environmental contributions
to those differences are almost equally mysterious.
We know that both biological and social aspects
of the environment are important for intelligence, but we
are a long way from understanding how they exert their
effects.
One environmental variable with clear-cut importance
is the presence of formal schooling. Schools affect
intelligence in many ways, not only by transmitting specific
information but by developing certain intellectual
skills and attitudes. Failure to attend school (or attendance
at very poor schools) has a clear negative effect on intelligence
test scores. Preschool programs and similar interventions
often have positive effects, but in most cases
the gains fade when the program is over.
A number of conditions in the biological environment
have clear negative consequences for intellectual
development. Some of these--very important when they
occur--nevertheless do not contribute much to the population
variance of IQ scores because they are relatively
rare. (Perinatal complications are one such factor.) Exposure
to environmental lead has well-documented negative
effects; so too does prenatal exposure to high blood
levels of alcohol. Malnutrition in childhood is another
negative factor for intelligence, but the level at which its
effects become significant has not been clearly established.
Some studies suggest that dietary supplements of certain
micro-nutrients can produce gains even in otherwise wellnourished
individuals, but the effects are still controversial
and there has been no long-term follow-up.
One of the most striking phenomena in this field is
the steady worldwide rise in test scores, now often called
the "Flynn effect." Mean IQs have increased more than
15 points--a full standard deviation--in the last 50 years,
and the rate of gain may be increasing. These gains may
result from improved nutrition, cultural changes, experience
with testing, shifts in schooling or child-rearing
practices, or some other factor as yet unknown.
Although there are no important sex differences in
overall intelligence test scores, substantial differences do
appear for specific abilities. Males typically score higher
on visual-spatial and (beginning in middle childhood)
mathematical skills; females excel on a number of verbal
measures. Sex hormone levels are clearly related to some
of these differences, but social factors presumably play a
role as well. As for all the group differences reviewed here,
the range of performance within each group is much larger
than the mean difference between groups.
Because ethnic differences in intelligence reflect
complex patterns, no overall generalization about them
is appropriate. The mean IQ scores of Chinese and Japanese
Americans, for example, differ little from those of
Whites though their spatial ability scores tend to be
somewhat higher. The outstanding record of these groups
in terms of school achievement and occupational status
evidently reflects cultural factors. The mean intelligence
test scores of Hispanic Americans are somewhat lower
than those of Whites, in part because Hispanics are often
less familiar with English. Nevertheless, their test scores,
like those of African Americans, are reasonably good
predictors of school and college achievement.
African American IQ scores have long averaged
about 15 points below those of Whites, with correspondingly
lower scores on academic achievement tests. In
recent years the achievement-test gap has narrowed appreciably.
It is possible that the IQ-score differential is
narrowing as well, but this has not been clearly established.
The cause of that differential is not known; it is
apparently not due to any simple form of bias in the
content or administration of the tests themselves. The
Flynn effect shows that environmental factors can produce
differences of at least this magnitude, but that effect
is mysterious in its own right. Several culturally-based
explanations of the Black/White IQ differential have been
proposed; some are plausible, but so far none has been
conclusively supported. There is even less empirical support
for a genetic interpretation. In short, no adequate
explanation of the differential between the IQ means of
Blacks and Whites is presently available.
It is customary to conclude surveys like this one
with a summary of what has been established. Indeed,
much is now known about intelligence. A near-century
of research, most of it based on psychometric methods,
has produced an impressive body of findings. Although
we have tried to do justice to those findings in this report,
it seems appropriate to conclude on a different note. In
this contentious arena, our most useful role may be to
remind our readers that many of the critical questions
about intelligence are still unanswered. Here are a few of
those questions:
1. Differences in genetic endowment contribute substantially
to individual differences in (psychometric) intelligence,
but the pathway by which genes produce their
effects is still unknown. The impact of genetic differences
appears to increase with age, but we do not know why.
2. Environmental factors also contribute substantially
to the development of intelligence, but we do not
clearly understand what those factors are or how they
work. Attendance at school is certainly important, for
example, but we do not know what aspects of schooling
are critical.
3. The role of nutrition in intelligence remains
obscure. Severe childhood malnutrition has clear negative
effects, but the hypothesis that particular "micronutrients"
may affect intelligence in otherwise adequately-
fed populations has not yet been convincingly
demonstrated.
4. There are significant correlations between measures
of information-processing speed and psychometric
intelligence, but the overall pattern of these findings yields
no easy theoretical interpretation.
5. Mean scores on intelligence tests are rising steadily.
They have gone up a full standard deviation in the last
50 years or so, and the rate of gain may be increasing.
No one is sure why these gains are happening or what
they mean.
6. The differential between the mean intelligence test
scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation,
although it may be diminishing) does not result from
any obvious biases in test construction and administration,
nor does it simply reflect differences in socioeconomic
status. Explanations based on factors of caste and
culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct
empirical support. There is certainly no such support for
a genetic interpretation. At present, no one knows what
causes this differential.
7. It is widely agreed that standardized tests do not
sample all forms of intelligence. Obvious examples include
creativity, wisdom, practical sense, and social sensitivity;
there are surely others. Despite the importance
of these abilities we know very little about them: how
they develop, what factors influence that development,
how they are related to more traditional measures.
In a field where so many issues are unresolved and
so many questions unanswered, the confident tone that
has characterized most of the debate on these topics is
clearly out of place. The study of intelligence does not
need politicized assertions and recriminations; it needs
self-restraint, reflection, and a great deal more research.
The questions that remain are socially as well as scientifically
important. There is no reason to think them unanswerable,
but finding the answers will require a shared
and sustained effort as well as the commitment of substantial
scientific resources. Just such a commitment is
what we strongly recommend.
M Winther
2010-07-27 05:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Smith
Post by M Winther
The Flynn effect has already peaked in many Western countries. American
Blacks have peaked long ago at IQ 85................
The point is that an IQ of 85 in 2000 reflected a very different
performance than did an IQ of 85 in 1950.
Post by M Winther
This religious belief in everybody's
equal
capacities is ridiculous. If it's not the Master Race, then it's The
Glorious
Egalitarian Unity of Mankind. Soon people will drop back to madness
racialism.
So it goes, back and forth, simply because people refuse to settle at a
balanced
viewpoint.
Why do you think that your viewpoint is balanced? It seems to me that
you identify with the views of Jensen/Rushton/Lynn etc and reject or
don't even consider the views of Flynn/Dickens/Nisbett etc. I don't
think firm conclusions are justified given the limitations of our
present knowledge -- even the basic concepts of intelligence and race
can not be clearly defined and measured. I think the conclusions of
an American task force, published some years ago, are appropriately
http://www.psych.illinois.edu/~broberts/Neisser%20et%20al,%201996,%20intelligence.pdf
Because there are many ways to be intelligent, there are
also many conceptualizations of intelligence. The most
influential approach, and the one that has generated the
most systematic research, is based on psychometric testing.
This tradition has produced a substantial body of
knowledge, though many questions remain unanswered.
We know much less about the forms of intelligence that
tests do not easily assess: wisdom, creativity, practical
knowledge, social skill, and the like.
Psychometricians have successfully measured a wide
range of abilities, distinct from one another and yet intercorrelated.
The complex relations among those abilities
can be described in many ways. Some theorists focus on
the variance that all such abilities have in common, which
Spearman termed g ("general intelligence"); others prefer
to describe the same manifold with a set of partially independent
factors; still others opt for a multifactorial description
with factors hierarchically arranged and something
like g at the top. Standardized intelligence test scores
("IQs"), which reflect a person's standing in relation to
his or her age cohort, are based on tests that tap a number
of different abilities. Recent studies have found that these
scores are also correlated with information processing
speed in certain experimental paradigms (choice reaction
time, inspection time, evoked brain potentials, etc.), but
the meaning of those correlations is far from clear.
Intelligence test scores predict individual differences
in school achievement moderately well, correlating about
.50 with grade point average and .55 with the number of
years of education that individuals complete. In this context
the skills measured by tests are clearly important.
Nevertheless, population levels of school achievement are
not determined solely or even primarily by intelligence
or any other individual-difference variable. The fact that
children in Japan and Taiwan learn much more mathematics
than their peers in America, for example, can be
attributed primarily to differences in culture and schooling
rather than in abilities measured by intelligence tests.
Test scores also correlate with measures of accomplishment
outside of school, e.g., with adult occupational
status. To some extent those correlations result directly
from the tests' link with school achievement and from
their roles as "gatekeepers." In the United States today,
high test scores and grades are prerequisites for entry into
many careers and professions. This is not quite the whole
story, however: a significant correlation between psychometric
intelligence and occupational status remains even
when measures of education and family background have
been statistically controlled. There are also modest (negative)
correlations between intelligence test scores and
certain undesirable behaviors such as juvenile crime.
Those correlations are necessarily low: all social outcomes
result from complex causal webs in which psychometric
skills are only one factor.
Like every trait, intelligence is the joint product of
genetic and environmental variables. Gene action always
involves a (biochemical or social) environment; environments
always act via structures to which genes have contributed.
Given a trait on which individuals vary, however,
one can ask what fraction of that variation is associated
with differences in their genotypes (this is the heritability
of the trait) as well as what fraction is associated with
differences in environmental experience. So defined, heritability
(h a) can and does vary from one population to
another. In the case of IQ, h 2 is markedly lower for children
(about .45) than for adults (about .75). This means
that as children grow up, differences in test scores tend
increasingly to reflect differences in genotype and in individual
life experience rather than differences among the
families in which they were raised.
The factors underlying that shift--and more generally
the pathways by which genes make their undoubted
contributions to individual differences in intelligence--
are largely unknown. Moreover, the environmental contributions
to those differences are almost equally mysterious.
We know that both biological and social aspects
of the environment are important for intelligence, but we
are a long way from understanding how they exert their
effects.
One environmental variable with clear-cut importance
is the presence of formal schooling. Schools affect
intelligence in many ways, not only by transmitting specific
information but by developing certain intellectual
skills and attitudes. Failure to attend school (or attendance
at very poor schools) has a clear negative effect on intelligence
test scores. Preschool programs and similar interventions
often have positive effects, but in most cases
the gains fade when the program is over.
A number of conditions in the biological environment
have clear negative consequences for intellectual
development. Some of these--very important when they
occur--nevertheless do not contribute much to the population
variance of IQ scores because they are relatively
rare. (Perinatal complications are one such factor.) Exposure
to environmental lead has well-documented negative
effects; so too does prenatal exposure to high blood
levels of alcohol. Malnutrition in childhood is another
negative factor for intelligence, but the level at which its
effects become significant has not been clearly established.
Some studies suggest that dietary supplements of certain
micro-nutrients can produce gains even in otherwise wellnourished
individuals, but the effects are still controversial
and there has been no long-term follow-up.
One of the most striking phenomena in this field is
the steady worldwide rise in test scores, now often called
the "Flynn effect." Mean IQs have increased more than
15 points--a full standard deviation--in the last 50 years,
and the rate of gain may be increasing. These gains may
result from improved nutrition, cultural changes, experience
with testing, shifts in schooling or child-rearing
practices, or some other factor as yet unknown.
Although there are no important sex differences in
overall intelligence test scores, substantial differences do
appear for specific abilities. Males typically score higher
on visual-spatial and (beginning in middle childhood)
mathematical skills; females excel on a number of verbal
measures. Sex hormone levels are clearly related to some
of these differences, but social factors presumably play a
role as well. As for all the group differences reviewed here,
the range of performance within each group is much larger
than the mean difference between groups.
Because ethnic differences in intelligence reflect
complex patterns, no overall generalization about them
is appropriate. The mean IQ scores of Chinese and Japanese
Americans, for example, differ little from those of
Whites though their spatial ability scores tend to be
somewhat higher. The outstanding record of these groups
in terms of school achievement and occupational status
evidently reflects cultural factors. The mean intelligence
test scores of Hispanic Americans are somewhat lower
than those of Whites, in part because Hispanics are often
less familiar with English. Nevertheless, their test scores,
like those of African Americans, are reasonably good
predictors of school and college achievement.
African American IQ scores have long averaged
about 15 points below those of Whites, with correspondingly
lower scores on academic achievement tests. In
recent years the achievement-test gap has narrowed appreciably.
It is possible that the IQ-score differential is
narrowing as well, but this has not been clearly established.
The cause of that differential is not known; it is
apparently not due to any simple form of bias in the
content or administration of the tests themselves. The
Flynn effect shows that environmental factors can produce
differences of at least this magnitude, but that effect
is mysterious in its own right. Several culturally-based
explanations of the Black/White IQ differential have been
proposed; some are plausible, but so far none has been
conclusively supported. There is even less empirical support
for a genetic interpretation. In short, no adequate
explanation of the differential between the IQ means of
Blacks and Whites is presently available.
It is customary to conclude surveys like this one
with a summary of what has been established. Indeed,
much is now known about intelligence. A near-century
of research, most of it based on psychometric methods,
has produced an impressive body of findings. Although
we have tried to do justice to those findings in this report,
it seems appropriate to conclude on a different note. In
this contentious arena, our most useful role may be to
remind our readers that many of the critical questions
about intelligence are still unanswered. Here are a few of
1. Differences in genetic endowment contribute substantially
to individual differences in (psychometric) intelligence,
but the pathway by which genes produce their
effects is still unknown. The impact of genetic differences
appears to increase with age, but we do not know why.
2. Environmental factors also contribute substantially
to the development of intelligence, but we do not
clearly understand what those factors are or how they
work. Attendance at school is certainly important, for
example, but we do not know what aspects of schooling
are critical.
3. The role of nutrition in intelligence remains
obscure. Severe childhood malnutrition has clear negative
effects, but the hypothesis that particular "micronutrients"
may affect intelligence in otherwise adequately-
fed populations has not yet been convincingly
demonstrated.
4. There are significant correlations between measures
of information-processing speed and psychometric
intelligence, but the overall pattern of these findings yields
no easy theoretical interpretation.
5. Mean scores on intelligence tests are rising steadily.
They have gone up a full standard deviation in the last
50 years or so, and the rate of gain may be increasing.
No one is sure why these gains are happening or what
they mean.
6. The differential between the mean intelligence test
scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation,
although it may be diminishing) does not result from
any obvious biases in test construction and administration,
nor does it simply reflect differences in socioeconomic
status. Explanations based on factors of caste and
culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct
empirical support. There is certainly no such support for
a genetic interpretation. At present, no one knows what
causes this differential.
7. It is widely agreed that standardized tests do not
sample all forms of intelligence. Obvious examples include
creativity, wisdom, practical sense, and social sensitivity;
there are surely others. Despite the importance
of these abilities we know very little about them: how
they develop, what factors influence that development,
how they are related to more traditional measures.
In a field where so many issues are unresolved and
so many questions unanswered, the confident tone that
has characterized most of the debate on these topics is
clearly out of place. The study of intelligence does not
need politicized assertions and recriminations; it needs
self-restraint, reflection, and a great deal more research.
The questions that remain are socially as well as scientifically
important. There is no reason to think them unanswerable,
but finding the answers will require a shared
and sustained effort as well as the commitment of substantial
scientific resources. Just such a commitment is
what we strongly recommend.
Environmental factors, malnutrition, etc. have been used to
explain away IQ differences. But massive immigration to the
Western world to countries like Sweden, where Blacks live
under no worse conditions than Whites, has discredited this
idea. In Sweden 25% of Somali kids can't even make it through
the nine-years school despite attending better schools than
Swedish kids, as they get more resources per pupil. There is
no malnutrition, and they live in good living conditions. More
than 80% of Somalis are unemployed, according to the latest
Timbro report. It is time to swallow the bitter pill: ethnic
groups don't have equal capacities. It is becoming ridiculous
to defend the egalitarian standpoint.

Mats
Lance
2010-07-27 10:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Environmental factors, malnutrition, etc. have been used to
explain away IQ differences. But massive immigration to the
Western world to countries like Sweden, where Blacks live
under no worse conditions than Whites, has discredited this
idea. In Sweden 25% of Somali kids can't even make it through
the nine-years school despite attending better schools than
Swedish kids, as they get more resources per pupil. There is
no malnutrition, and they live in good living conditions. More
than 80% of Somalis are unemployed, according to the latest
Timbro report. It is time to swallow the bitter pill: ethnic
groups don't have equal capacities. It is becoming ridiculous
to defend the egalitarian standpoint.
Mats
Reading your remarks reminded me that this was exactly the sort of
observation (poor performance of children from third world countries
when placed in the schooling system of an advanced country) that
started Reuven Feuerstein's work. For example Feuerstein worked with
the Israeli army trying to integrate children from Morrocan jewish
families into Israel. Feuerstein hypothesised that when Morrocan Jews
arrived in Israel they were basically shepards and were overawed with
the modern state in which they found themselves. This caused them to
withdraw from their children, saying something like, "we have nothing
to offer you in this modern place." But all children need a system of
interpretation (a culture) in order to undertsand the world
hypothesised Feuerstein, and it was this lack of an interpretive
system that was causing the children's retardation. Well feuerstein
set out to remedy the situation and produced perhaps the most
comprehensive remedial education system ever developed.

If you are interested see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuven_Feuerstein
M Winther
2010-07-27 14:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
Post by M Winther
Environmental factors, malnutrition, etc. have been used to
explain away IQ differences. But massive immigration to the
Western world to countries like Sweden, where Blacks live
under no worse conditions than Whites, has discredited this
idea. In Sweden 25% of Somali kids can't even make it through
the nine-years school despite attending better schools than
Swedish kids, as they get more resources per pupil. There is
no malnutrition, and they live in good living conditions. More
than 80% of Somalis are unemployed, according to the latest
Timbro report. It is time to swallow the bitter pill: ethnic
groups don't have equal capacities. It is becoming ridiculous
to defend the egalitarian standpoint.
Mats
Reading your remarks reminded me that this was exactly the sort of
observation (poor performance of children from third world countries
when placed in the schooling system of an advanced country) that
started Reuven Feuerstein's work. For example Feuerstein worked with
the Israeli army trying to integrate children from Morrocan jewish
families into Israel. Feuerstein hypothesised that when Morrocan Jews
arrived in Israel they were basically shepards and were overawed with
the modern state in which they found themselves. This caused them to
withdraw from their children, saying something like, "we have nothing
to offer you in this modern place." But all children need a system of
interpretation (a culture) in order to undertsand the world
hypothesised Feuerstein, and it was this lack of an interpretive
system that was causing the children's retardation. Well feuerstein
set out to remedy the situation and produced perhaps the most
comprehensive remedial education system ever developed.
If you are interested see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuven_Feuerstein
Well, these Somali kids are born in Sweden. They have never been
adapted to a shepherd culture.

Mats
Lance
2010-07-27 19:43:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by Lance
Post by M Winther
Environmental factors, malnutrition, etc. have been used to
explain away IQ differences. But massive immigration to the
Western world to countries like Sweden, where Blacks live
under no worse conditions than Whites, has discredited this
idea. In Sweden 25% of Somali kids can't even make it through
the nine-years school despite attending better  schools than
Swedish kids, as they get more resources per pupil. There is
no malnutrition, and they live in good living conditions. More
than 80% of Somalis are unemployed, according to the latest
Timbro report. It is time to swallow the bitter pill: ethnic
groups don't have equal capacities. It is becoming ridiculous
to defend the egalitarian standpoint.
Mats
Reading your remarks reminded me that this was exactly the sort of
observation (poor performance of children from third world countries
when placed in the schooling system of an advanced country) that
started Reuven Feuerstein's work. For example Feuerstein worked with
the Israeli army trying to integrate children from Morrocan jewish
families into Israel. Feuerstein hypothesised that when Morrocan Jews
arrived in Israel they were basically shepards and were overawed with
the modern state in which they found themselves. This caused them to
withdraw from their children, saying something like, "we have nothing
to offer you in this modern place." But all children need a system of
interpretation (a culture) in order to undertsand the world
hypothesised Feuerstein, and it was this lack of an interpretive
system that was causing the children's retardation. Well feuerstein
set out to remedy the situation and produced perhaps the most
comprehensive remedial education system ever developed.
If you are interested see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuven_Feuerstein
Well, these Somali kids are born in Sweden. They have never been
adapted to a shepherd culture.
Mats
The issue, according to Feuerstein, is not where they were born, but
whether their parents have transmitted a cultural interpretive system
that they can use to understand the world.

Lance
M Winther
2010-07-28 04:05:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by Lance
Post by M Winther
Environmental factors, malnutrition, etc. have been used to
explain away IQ differences. But massive immigration to the
Western world to countries like Sweden, where Blacks live
under no worse conditions than Whites, has discredited this
idea. In Sweden 25% of Somali kids can't even make it through
the nine-years school despite attending better schools than
Swedish kids, as they get more resources per pupil. There is
no malnutrition, and they live in good living conditions. More
than 80% of Somalis are unemployed, according to the latest
Timbro report. It is time to swallow the bitter pill: ethnic
groups don't have equal capacities. It is becoming ridiculous
to defend the egalitarian standpoint.
Mats
Reading your remarks reminded me that this was exactly the sort of
observation (poor performance of children from third world countries
when placed in the schooling system of an advanced country) that
started Reuven Feuerstein's work. For example Feuerstein worked with
the Israeli army trying to integrate children from Morrocan jewish
families into Israel. Feuerstein hypothesised that when Morrocan Jews
arrived in Israel they were basically shepards and were overawed with
the modern state in which they found themselves. This caused them to
withdraw from their children, saying something like, "we have nothing
to offer you in this modern place." But all children need a system of
interpretation (a culture) in order to undertsand the world
hypothesised Feuerstein, and it was this lack of an interpretive
system that was causing the children's retardation. Well feuerstein
set out to remedy the situation and produced perhaps the most
comprehensive remedial education system ever developed.
If you are interested see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuven_Feuerstein
Well, these Somali kids are born in Sweden. They have never been
adapted to a shepherd culture.
Mats
The issue, according to Feuerstein, is not where they were born, but
whether their parents have transmitted a cultural interpretive system
that they can use to understand the world.
Lance
Oh, that's interesting. I've reasoned along similar lines here:
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm

"An intrusion of matriarchal consciousness

Abstract: It is argued that Western general consciousness, in parallel
with an ongoing cultural dissolution, risks moving in a "matriarchal"
direction. The phenomenon represents an inroad of matriarchal
consciousness into patriarchal culture, with forbidding consequences,
namely the formation of a neurotic culture at a lower level of
consciousness. This is unacceptable in the face of the advanced
challenges of the future. The distinctive character of a culture, in
terms of its cultural and psychological advancement, is a very
precious thing that can give the individual the right soil to grow in,
while it will suit his inborn constitution. The painful questions of
race and ethnicity can no longer be sidestepped. Historically,
delirious racial elitism has been counterpoised by an equally
unfounded homologous view of humanity. Guided by the latest findings
in human genetics, it is high time to arrive at a balanced view of
ethnic diversity.

Keywords: race, matriarchal, patriarchal, heroic, psychic gradient,
ethnic unconscious.

http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm

Mats Winther
Lance
2010-07-28 22:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by Lance
Post by M Winther
Environmental factors, malnutrition, etc. have been used to
explain away IQ differences. But massive immigration to the
Western world to countries like Sweden, where Blacks live
under no worse conditions than Whites, has discredited this
idea. In Sweden 25% of Somali kids can't even make it through
the nine-years school despite attending better schools than
Swedish kids, as they get more resources per pupil. There is
no malnutrition, and they live in good living conditions. More
than 80% of Somalis are unemployed, according to the latest
Timbro report. It is time to swallow the bitter pill: ethnic
groups don't have equal capacities. It is becoming ridiculous
to defend the egalitarian standpoint.
Mats
Reading your remarks reminded me that this was exactly the sort of
observation (poor performance of children from third world countries
when placed in the schooling system of an advanced country) that
started Reuven Feuerstein's work. For example Feuerstein worked with
the Israeli army trying to integrate children from Morrocan jewish
families into Israel. Feuerstein hypothesised that when Morrocan Jews
arrived in Israel they were basically shepards and were overawed with
the modern state in which they found themselves. This caused them to
withdraw from their children, saying something like, "we have nothing
to offer you in this modern place." But all children need a system of
interpretation (a culture) in order to undertsand the world
hypothesised Feuerstein, and it was this lack of an interpretive
system that was causing the children's retardation. Well feuerstein
set out to remedy the situation and produced perhaps the most
comprehensive remedial education system ever developed.
If you are interested see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuven_Feuerstein
Well, these Somali kids are born in Sweden. They have never been
adapted to a shepherd culture.
Mats
The issue, according to Feuerstein, is not where they were born, but
whether their parents have transmitted a cultural interpretive system
that they can use to understand the world.
Lance
Oh, that's interesting. I've reasoned along similar lines here:http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm
"An intrusion of matriarchal consciousness
Abstract: It is argued that Western general consciousness, in parallel
with an ongoing cultural dissolution, risks moving in a "matriarchal"
direction. The phenomenon represents an inroad of matriarchal
consciousness into patriarchal culture, with forbidding consequences,
namely the formation of a neurotic culture at a lower level of
consciousness. This is unacceptable in the face of the advanced
challenges of the future. The distinctive character of a culture, in
terms of its cultural and psychological advancement, is a very
precious thing that can give the individual the right soil to grow in,
while it will suit his inborn constitution. The painful questions of
race and ethnicity can no longer be sidestepped. Historically,
delirious racial elitism has been counterpoised by an equally
unfounded homologous view of humanity. Guided by the latest findings
in human genetics, it is high time to arrive at a balanced view of
ethnic diversity.
Keywords: race, matriarchal, patriarchal, heroic, psychic gradient,
ethnic unconscious.
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm
Mats Winther
I'm afraid I don't understand your abstract...

Lance
M Winther
2010-07-29 04:23:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by M Winther
Post by Lance
Post by M Winther
Environmental factors, malnutrition, etc. have been used to
explain away IQ differences. But massive immigration to the
Western world to countries like Sweden, where Blacks live
under no worse conditions than Whites, has discredited this
idea. In Sweden 25% of Somali kids can't even make it through
the nine-years school despite attending better schools than
Swedish kids, as they get more resources per pupil. There is
no malnutrition, and they live in good living conditions. More
than 80% of Somalis are unemployed, according to the latest
Timbro report. It is time to swallow the bitter pill: ethnic
groups don't have equal capacities. It is becoming ridiculous
to defend the egalitarian standpoint.
Mats
Reading your remarks reminded me that this was exactly the sort of
observation (poor performance of children from third world countries
when placed in the schooling system of an advanced country) that
started Reuven Feuerstein's work. For example Feuerstein worked with
the Israeli army trying to integrate children from Morrocan jewish
families into Israel. Feuerstein hypothesised that when Morrocan Jews
arrived in Israel they were basically shepards and were overawed with
the modern state in which they found themselves. This caused them to
withdraw from their children, saying something like, "we have nothing
to offer you in this modern place." But all children need a system of
interpretation (a culture) in order to undertsand the world
hypothesised Feuerstein, and it was this lack of an interpretive
system that was causing the children's retardation. Well feuerstein
set out to remedy the situation and produced perhaps the most
comprehensive remedial education system ever developed.
If you are interested see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuven_Feuerstein
Well, these Somali kids are born in Sweden. They have never been
adapted to a shepherd culture.
Mats
The issue, according to Feuerstein, is not where they were born, but
whether their parents have transmitted a cultural interpretive system
that they can use to understand the world.
Lance
Oh, that's interesting. I've reasoned along similar lines
here:http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm
"An intrusion of matriarchal consciousness
Abstract: It is argued that Western general consciousness, in parallel
with an ongoing cultural dissolution, risks moving in a "matriarchal"
direction. The phenomenon represents an inroad of matriarchal
consciousness into patriarchal culture, with forbidding consequences,
namely the formation of a neurotic culture at a lower level of
consciousness. This is unacceptable in the face of the advanced
challenges of the future. The distinctive character of a culture, in
terms of its cultural and psychological advancement, is a very
precious thing that can give the individual the right soil to grow in,
while it will suit his inborn constitution. The painful questions of
race and ethnicity can no longer be sidestepped. Historically,
delirious racial elitism has been counterpoised by an equally
unfounded homologous view of humanity. Guided by the latest findings
in human genetics, it is high time to arrive at a balanced view of
ethnic diversity.
Keywords: race, matriarchal, patriarchal, heroic, psychic gradient,
ethnic unconscious.
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm
Mats Winther
I'm afraid I don't understand your abstract...
Post by M Winther
Lance
Sometimes one must make an effort, grab the bull by the horns, in
order to come to grips with a difficult question. One must read and
study difficult things, and not expect every complicated problem to
be resolved by resort to patented abstract formulas. Thorny problems
sometimes require complicated solutions. So please read my article
and make good use of your brain.

Mats
Lance
2010-07-29 11:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Sometimes one must make an effort, grab the bull by the horns, in
order to come to grips with a difficult question. One must read and
study difficult things, and not expect every complicated problem to
be resolved by resort to patented abstract formulas. Thorny problems
sometimes require complicated solutions. So please read my article
and make good use of your brain.
I am very sorry its your issue not mine. If you want me to understand
you will have to make the central ideas available here. I only replied
to your message because you seem to be pushing a racist agenda...

Anyway, I looked up "matriarchal culture" and found this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy

In that article it states:

"In 19th century western scholarship, the hypothesis of matriarchy
representing an early stage of human development — now mostly lost in
prehistory, with the exception of some "primitive" societies — enjoyed
popularity. The hypothesis survived into the 20th century and was
notably advanced in the context of feminism and especially second wave
feminism, but this hypothesis of matriarchy as "merely" an early stage
of human development is mostly discredited today.[14]"

The footnote numbered 14 reads:

""The view of matriarchy as constituting a stage of cultural
development now is generally discredited. Furthermore, the consensus
among modern anthropologists and sociologists is that a strictly
matriarchal society never existed." 'Matriarchy', Encyclopædia
Britannica, 2007."

So if that claim is the basis of your argument I suspect you are in
trouble...

Lance
M Winther
2010-07-30 05:30:40 UTC
Permalink
I know these objections, but my interpretation of the term "matriarchy"
is different. It is the female motherly *principle* that is central, and the
mother complex is in ascendancy. So the term does not depend on females
in power, but, rather, on psychological factors. Anthroplogists and
sociologists don't think in psychological terms, so they lack a proper
notion of matriarchy.
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm

Mats
Post by M Winther
Sometimes one must make an effort, grab the bull by the horns, in
order to come to grips with a difficult question. One must read and
study difficult things, and not expect every complicated problem to
be resolved by resort to patented abstract formulas. Thorny problems
sometimes require complicated solutions. So please read my article
and make good use of your brain.
I am very sorry its your issue not mine. If you want me to understand
you will have to make the central ideas available here. I only replied
to your message because you seem to be pushing a racist agenda...

Anyway, I looked up "matriarchal culture" and found this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy

In that article it states:

"In 19th century western scholarship, the hypothesis of matriarchy
representing an early stage of human development — now mostly lost in
prehistory, with the exception of some "primitive" societies — enjoyed
popularity. The hypothesis survived into the 20th century and was
notably advanced in the context of feminism and especially second wave
feminism, but this hypothesis of matriarchy as "merely" an early stage
of human development is mostly discredited today.[14]"

The footnote numbered 14 reads:

""The view of matriarchy as constituting a stage of cultural
development now is generally discredited. Furthermore, the consensus
among modern anthropologists and sociologists is that a strictly
matriarchal society never existed." 'Matriarchy', Encyclopædia
Britannica, 2007."

So if that claim is the basis of your argument I suspect you are in
trouble...

Lance

Dave Smith
2010-07-23 22:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Blacks have lived in the U.S. for many centuries. They are still
hugely disadvantaged, despite having increased their IQ to 85 du to a
30% White genetic admixture.
For a different interpretation see:

http://www.brookings.edu/views/papers/dickens/20060619_iq.pdf
Post by M Winther
Certain ethnic groups tend to put much emphasis on the microsocial
perspective, and the individual is to a great extent carried by the
collective.
This social principle seems to imply that there is a weaker impetus
toward individual emancipation. The foremost principle is instead to
be carried by the collective, as opposed to having ambitions and to
journey somewhere in life.
So it all depends on hereditary factors.
Why hereditary factors? Much is passed on by cultural tansmission.

Dave Smith
Peter Brooks
2010-07-18 10:12:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
Post by Peter Brooks
Post by Dave Smith
is the same across cultures.[84] "
Now that's an interesting question.
I wonder how it could be different. I'd have thought, to some extent,
that the nature of intelligence, or much of it, is the same across
species. Anybody who has known dogs will know that some are an awful
lot brighter than others, and, since they've co-evolved with humans,
their way of thinking seems quite approachable and understandable.
The intelligence of an octopus, alien as their brains clearly are,
also seems pretty similar to that of humans - the stories of them
squirting water at lights that annoy them at night suggests to me a
mind of much the same cast as mine when some bastard parks me in.
http://www.ns.umich.edu/Releases/2003/Feb03/r022703a.html
It is interesting. As I started to read it, I was reminded of my
recent experiences with feng shui, and then the article mentioned it
as well.

What struck me was how dismissive Westerners were of it, seeing it as
silly, childish and faddish. They see it as a set of rules that have
to be applied to things that don't really make sense.

This misses the point completely, the aim is to make things more
harmonious, the things that appear as 'rules' are simply observations
of the sort of thing that is more harmonious.

I enjoyed being part of the whole debate, and was pleased to find a
way to accommodate both the easterner's desire for feng shui to be
applied (in this case to a logo) and for the westerners not to feel
that the company was being corrupted by space cadets.
Lance
2010-07-17 23:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by M Winther
Post by LifeBinge
Post by M Winther
If the genetic characteristics of society changes, society will also
change. This is so obvious, but you prefer to turn a blind eye to it,
because you want to sleep well at night. You think only about yourself
and don't care for future generations.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If the genetic characteristics of the society change, it has nothing
to do with the genetics has nothing to do with beliefs, If the
cultural characterics of society change, the society changes.. just
because Obama made president, doesnt mean they's all blacks down there
now or wannabe's... society may change based on his beleif/culture,
not on his genetics..
The more "devoloped" the society, the more poluted it becomes, these
"lesser" cultures have something western/europeon culture has lost
long ago, natual sustainability without parasitic/destructiv behavior
towards our home/earth, they live free.. we live by obedience,
Developed societies may be technologicaly advanced, but are also
spiritually lost.
Genetics has nothing to do with deciding the society's structure, its
the belief system, thier conditioning which is not derrived from
genetics but social development/experience.. You guys are obsessed
with the material/physical and forget about the other side of
things..
I agree that each race/people/culture should have their own land with
their own laws, but no people should have to restrict themselves to
locals based on race, culture on the other hand, keep it there, share
but do not impose, embrace. Western culture is bent on imposing and
is poluted beyond comprehension.. Which is the "Lesser culture"
Western or that of pure naturality.
I think that race is more on the inside than on the outside. People
who think in terms of "racial purity" are only fixated on outside
characteristics, and accomplishments. But, of course, genetics always
plays a role. Blacks in the U.S. have, on average, 30% White
admixture, I believe. Their IQ averages 85. Sub-Saharan Blacks average
71-75, which is significantly lower.
So, if a white person marries a black person, he/she should know that
the children are likely to be less intelligent than if he/she marries
a white person. It is only fair that they should know this. It doesn't
matter if the Black person is intelligent. Due to the law of
regression the children will tend towards average IQ. Why should we
withhold such information? In all other circumstances it would be
regarded a scandal if authorities withheld the information that
children will become less intelligent. It also has a bearing on the
future economical success of the nations. Average IQ is coupled to BNP
per capita (Lynn & Vanhanen). In fact, our civilization is dependent
on intelligent people who will come up with new solution to the energy
problem, environmental problems, etc. If we put our valuable gentic
advantages to waste, it might prove devastating.
In my article "An Intrusion of Matriarchal Consciousness" I argue
that..."Broadly speaking, there is in the "white" culture a strife
toward higher accomplishment, an advancement of consciousness, a
movement of emancipation. But among certain ethnic groups one can
detect a general movement toward the other end, namely to belong in an
unconscious community, to swim with the tide. The psychic gradients, I
would argue, go in different directions."http:>home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm puzzled by your reference to a 'law of regression'.  I vaguely
know about regression to the mean, but understand it to be an effect
which would apply regardless of race.
How do you account for the Flynn effect?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
Dave Smith
The regression to the mean is relevant to all races. American Blacks
regress to their average, 85, whereas Whites regress to their average,
100 (cf. Rushton).
The Flynn effect implies that IQ has increased somewhat over the
generations from the 1950s onwards. But this development peaks at a
certain figure. It has peaked in UK and in Denmark. I suppose that all
nations have a certain top IQ potential that can be reached with
better nutrition and schooling, etc. Epigenetics could play a role.
Anyway, IQ peaks at a certain figure. The IQ differential between the
races remains largely the same, I guess. But these questions must be
answered by an expert.
Mats
I think the claims about race differences in IQ have to be treated
with enormous scepticism.

For example Lynn claims that Kalahari bushmen have an average IQ of
54. Now an IQ of 54 is the IQ of a mentally retarded person. Such a
person has difficulty living on his or her own, struggles to learn to
tie shoelaces, struggles with everyday tasks. To survive such people
need help from others. But if we take 54 as the "average IQ" of
Kalahari Bushmen then half of them have an IQ below 54, and many of
them must be profoundly retarded - so much so that they could only
survive in institutions. Yet there are no institutions in Botswana
full of retarded Bushmen unable to take care of themselves. Indeed
there is no indication that the Bushmen are struggling to perform
everyday tasks. Perhaps Lynn would argue that the environment in which
the Bushmen live is so simple that even extremely retarded persons can
get by. But that is not so. I challenge you to see if you could
survive in the desert environment in which Kalahari Bushmen survive.
To acquire the competence of a bushman in desert survival skills (all
without the aid of modern technology) takes years of training for
Europeans. The hunting and tracking skills of Bushmen are legendary.
There is little evidence that the oral literacy of Bushmen is any less
than that of other hunter gatherers. They have the most complex sound
system of any human languages and languages with very complex
grammars. At any rate just a little reflection shows that the IQ
measures obtained by Lynn and others just have to be invalid because
it is clear that the average Bushman simply is NOT retarded. Ergo the
IQ measure is not returning a true result when applied to Bushmen.

I was rather pleased to see that this point (which I have made before)
was made in reviews of Lynn's book. For example:

'A review by Nicholas Mackintosh, Emeritus Professor in the Department
of Experimental Psychology, University of Cambridge, criticizes Lynn's
occasional manipulation of data, some of it originally collected by
the reviewer, from which distorted conclusions have been drawn.
Mackintosh expresses astonishment that Lynn infers elsewhere that
Kalahari bushmen, with an average measured IQ of 54, should be
regarded as mentally retarded; and that an 8 year old European child
with the equivalent mental age would have no problems surviving in the
same desert environment. He concludes:[13]

'"Much labour has gone into this book. But I fear it is the sort of
book that gives IQ testing a bad name. As a source of references, it
will be useful to some. As a source of information, it should be
treated with some suspicion. On the other hand, Lynn's preconceptions
are so plain, and so pungently expressed, that many readers will be
suspicious from the outset."'

see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Differences_in_Intelligence_(book)

Engineers commonly check the validity of claims with "back of the
envelop" calculations looking to see whether results are in reasonable
agreement with other known facts. I think a little thought soon shows
that the claims about African IQs being so low either invalidate the
IQ measure as a useful measure in Africa (because Africans are not all
institutionalized and unable to learn to tie their shoe laces or
struggle to master simple tasks) or suggest that the data is suspect.

Lance
M Winther
2010-07-18 05:25:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
Post by M Winther
Post by M Winther
Post by LifeBinge
Post by M Winther
If the genetic characteristics of society changes, society will also
change. This is so obvious, but you prefer to turn a blind eye to it,
because you want to sleep well at night. You think only about yourself
and don't care for future generations.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If the genetic characteristics of the society change, it has nothing
to do with the genetics has nothing to do with beliefs, If the
cultural characterics of society change, the society changes.. just
because Obama made president, doesnt mean they's all blacks down there
now or wannabe's... society may change based on his beleif/culture,
not on his genetics..
The more "devoloped" the society, the more poluted it becomes, these
"lesser" cultures have something western/europeon culture has lost
long ago, natual sustainability without parasitic/destructiv behavior
towards our home/earth, they live free.. we live by obedience,
Developed societies may be technologicaly advanced, but are also
spiritually lost.
Genetics has nothing to do with deciding the society's structure, its
the belief system, thier conditioning which is not derrived from
genetics but social development/experience.. You guys are obsessed
with the material/physical and forget about the other side of
things..
I agree that each race/people/culture should have their own land with
their own laws, but no people should have to restrict themselves to
locals based on race, culture on the other hand, keep it there, share
but do not impose, embrace. Western culture is bent on imposing and
is poluted beyond comprehension.. Which is the "Lesser culture"
Western or that of pure naturality.
I think that race is more on the inside than on the outside. People
who think in terms of "racial purity" are only fixated on outside
characteristics, and accomplishments. But, of course, genetics always
plays a role. Blacks in the U.S. have, on average, 30% White
admixture, I believe. Their IQ averages 85. Sub-Saharan Blacks average
71-75, which is significantly lower.
So, if a white person marries a black person, he/she should know that
the children are likely to be less intelligent than if he/she marries
a white person. It is only fair that they should know this. It doesn't
matter if the Black person is intelligent. Due to the law of
regression the children will tend towards average IQ. Why should we
withhold such information? In all other circumstances it would be
regarded a scandal if authorities withheld the information that
children will become less intelligent. It also has a bearing on the
future economical success of the nations. Average IQ is coupled to BNP
per capita (Lynn & Vanhanen). In fact, our civilization is dependent
on intelligent people who will come up with new solution to the energy
problem, environmental problems, etc. If we put our valuable gentic
advantages to waste, it might prove devastating.
In my article "An Intrusion of Matriarchal Consciousness" I argue
that..."Broadly speaking, there is in the "white" culture a strife
toward higher accomplishment, an advancement of consciousness, a
movement of emancipation. But among certain ethnic groups one can
detect a general movement toward the other end, namely to belong in an
unconscious community, to swim with the tide. The psychic gradients, I
would argue, go in different directions."http:>home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm puzzled by your reference to a 'law of regression'. I vaguely
know about regression to the mean, but understand it to be an effect
which would apply regardless of race.
How do you account for the Flynn effect?
http:>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
Dave Smith
The regression to the mean is relevant to all races. American Blacks
regress to their average, 85, whereas Whites regress to their average,
100 (cf. Rushton).
The Flynn effect implies that IQ has increased somewhat over the
generations from the 1950s onwards. But this development peaks at a
certain figure. It has peaked in UK and in Denmark. I suppose that all
nations have a certain top IQ potential that can be reached with
better nutrition and schooling, etc. Epigenetics could play a role.
Anyway, IQ peaks at a certain figure. The IQ differential between the
races remains largely the same, I guess. But these questions must be
answered by an expert.
Mats
I think the claims about race differences in IQ have to be treated
with enormous scepticism.
For example Lynn claims that Kalahari bushmen have an average IQ of
54. Now an IQ of 54 is the IQ of a mentally retarded person. Such a
person has difficulty living on his or her own, struggles to learn to
tie shoelaces, struggles with everyday tasks. To survive such people
need help from others. But if we take 54 as the "average IQ" of
Kalahari Bushmen then half of them have an IQ below 54, and many of
them must be profoundly retarded - so much so that they could only
survive in institutions. Yet there are no institutions in Botswana
full of retarded Bushmen unable to take care of themselves. Indeed
there is no indication that the Bushmen are struggling to perform
everyday tasks. Perhaps Lynn would argue that the environment in which
the Bushmen live is so simple that even extremely retarded persons can
get by. But that is not so. I challenge you to see if you could
survive in the desert environment in which Kalahari Bushmen survive.
To acquire the competence of a bushman in desert survival skills (all
without the aid of modern technology) takes years of training for
Europeans. The hunting and tracking skills of Bushmen are legendary.
There is little evidence that the oral literacy of Bushmen is any less
than that of other hunter gatherers. They have the most complex sound
system of any human languages and languages with very complex
grammars. At any rate just a little reflection shows that the IQ
measures obtained by Lynn and others just have to be invalid because
it is clear that the average Bushman simply is NOT retarded. Ergo the
IQ measure is not returning a true result when applied to Bushmen.
I was rather pleased to see that this point (which I have made before)
'A review by Nicholas Mackintosh, Emeritus Professor in the Department
of Experimental Psychology, University of Cambridge, criticizes Lynn's
occasional manipulation of data, some of it originally collected by
the reviewer, from which distorted conclusions have been drawn.
Mackintosh expresses astonishment that Lynn infers elsewhere that
Kalahari bushmen, with an average measured IQ of 54, should be
regarded as mentally retarded; and that an 8 year old European child
with the equivalent mental age would have no problems surviving in the
same desert environment. He concludes:[13]
'"Much labour has gone into this book. But I fear it is the sort of
book that gives IQ testing a bad name. As a source of references, it
will be useful to some. As a source of information, it should be
treated with some suspicion. On the other hand, Lynn's preconceptions
are so plain, and so pungently expressed, that many readers will be
suspicious from the outset."'
see
http:>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Differences_in_Intelligence_(book)
Engineers commonly check the validity of claims with "back of the
envelop" calculations looking to see whether results are in reasonable
agreement with other known facts. I think a little thought soon shows
that the claims about African IQs being so low either invalidate the
IQ measure as a useful measure in Africa (because Africans are not all
institutionalized and unable to learn to tie their shoe laces or
struggle to master simple tasks) or suggest that the data is suspect.
Lance
Mosby's Medical, Nursing and Allied Health Dictionary gives an average
IQ of between 50 and 60 for Down's syndrome individuals (although IQ
scores of 120 have been found in some individuals with the syndrome).
This means that the average bushman, according to Lynn, would
intellectually correspond to the average person with Down's syndrome.

I question whether the IQ tests are suitable for "primitive" people.
Should they be presented with problems that relate to their natural
environment, rather than abstract problems, then we would find that
their IQ is higher. I think that they are lacking in abstract
thinking, but can solve practical problems. C.G. Jung reports that he
showed a photo to African primitives. But they couldn't see what it
represented. One of them started to follow the outline with his finger,
and suddenly he exclaimed: "Ah, it's a white man!" A photo is an
abstract image. They had problems seeing it.

Mats Winther
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/
Lance
2010-07-19 08:09:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
I question whether the IQ tests are suitable for "primitive" people.
Should they be presented with problems that relate to their natural
environment, rather than abstract problems, then we would find that
their IQ is higher. I think that they are lacking in abstract
thinking, but can solve practical problems. C.G. Jung reports that he
showed a photo to African primitives. But they couldn't see what it
represented. One of them started to follow the outline with his finger,
and suddenly he exclaimed: "Ah, it's a white man!" A photo is an
abstract image. They had problems seeing it.
I looked for some research evidence to support C G Jung's claim. All I
can find is

- some evidence to support the Carpentered World hypothesis about
viewing the Muller-Lyer illusion
- some discussion of cross cultural differences in evaluating
phtographs

There does seem to be some support for the claim that seeing depth
using angular perspective is enhanced by living in a world where
straight lines are common. Onearticle suggested that evaluating depth
by the size of objects as difficult for people who had only lived in
forests where visual range was short.

I couldn't find any support for the claim that people from so-called
primitive cultures had so way of making sense of photographs.

I am not sure I believe the claim that photographs are abstract
objects or that so called primitive people lack the capacity to
understand abstract concepts.

Lance
M Winther
2010-07-19 12:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance
Post by M Winther
I question whether the IQ tests are suitable for "primitive" people.
Should they be presented with problems that relate to their natural
environment, rather than abstract problems, then we would find that
their IQ is higher. I think that they are lacking in abstract
thinking, but can solve practical problems. C.G. Jung reports that he
showed a photo to African primitives. But they couldn't see what it
represented. One of them started to follow the outline with his finger,
and suddenly he exclaimed: "Ah, it's a white man!" A photo is an
abstract image. They had problems seeing it.
I looked for some research evidence to support C G Jung's claim. All I
can find is
- some evidence to support the Carpentered World hypothesis about
viewing the Muller-Lyer illusion
- some discussion of cross cultural differences in evaluating
phtographs
There does seem to be some support for the claim that seeing depth
using angular perspective is enhanced by living in a world where
straight lines are common. Onearticle suggested that evaluating depth
by the size of objects as difficult for people who had only lived in
forests where visual range was short.
I couldn't find any support for the claim that people from so-called
primitive cultures had so way of making sense of photographs.
I am not sure I believe the claim that photographs are abstract
objects or that so called primitive people lack the capacity to
understand abstract concepts.
Lance
I think the primitives would soon learn to interpret photos. In that case
an inability to interpretet 2-dimensionality as 3-dimensionality cannot be
determined as lack of capacity as it is only temporal. After all, the brain
is very malleable. A problem with space stations is that astronauts lose
their distance vision by being confined to small spaces.

Anyway, there is an aspect of cultural bias in our vision:
http://www.ns.umich.edu/Releases/2003/Feb03/r022703a.html

Mats
Lance
2010-07-19 19:26:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by Lance
Post by M Winther
I question whether the IQ tests are suitable for "primitive" people.
Should they be presented with problems that relate to their natural
environment, rather than abstract problems, then we would find that
their IQ is higher. I think that they are lacking in abstract
thinking, but can solve practical problems. C.G. Jung reports that he
showed a photo to African primitives. But they couldn't see what it
represented. One of them started to follow the outline with his finger,
and suddenly he exclaimed: "Ah, it's a white man!" A photo is an
abstract image. They had problems seeing it.
I looked for some research evidence to support C G Jung's claim. All I
can find is
- some evidence to support the Carpentered World hypothesis about
viewing the Muller-Lyer illusion
- some discussion of cross cultural differences in evaluating
phtographs
There does seem to be some support for the claim that seeing depth
using angular perspective is enhanced by living in a world where
straight lines are common. Onearticle suggested that evaluating depth
by the size of objects as difficult for people who had only lived in
forests where visual range was short.
I couldn't find any support for the claim that people from so-called
primitive cultures had so way of making sense of photographs.
I am not sure I believe the claim that photographs are abstract
objects or that so called primitive people lack the capacity to
understand abstract concepts.
Lance
I think the primitives would soon learn to interpret photos. In that case
an inability to interpretet 2-dimensionality as 3-dimensionality cannot be
determined as lack of capacity as it is only temporal. After all, the brain
is very malleable. A problem with space stations is that astronauts lose
their distance vision by being confined to small spaces.
Anyway, there is an aspect of cultural bias in our vision:http://www.ns.umich.edu/Releases/2003/Feb03/r022703a.html
Mats
Isn't it amazing that "primitives" can learn anything. Perhaps we
could put them in a zoo, right next to Octopi...

Lance
Lance
2010-07-17 23:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Winther
Post by M Winther
Post by LifeBinge
Post by M Winther
If the genetic characteristics of society changes, society will also
change. This is so obvious, but you prefer to turn a blind eye to it,
because you want to sleep well at night. You think only about yourself
and don't care for future generations.
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If the genetic characteristics of the society change, it has nothing
to do with the genetics has nothing to do with beliefs, If the
cultural characterics of society change, the society changes.. just
because Obama made president, doesnt mean they's all blacks down there
now or wannabe's... society may change based on his beleif/culture,
not on his genetics..
The more "devoloped" the society, the more poluted it becomes, these
"lesser" cultures have something western/europeon culture has lost
long ago, natual sustainability without parasitic/destructiv behavior
towards our home/earth, they live free.. we live by obedience,
Developed societies may be technologicaly advanced, but are also
spiritually lost.
Genetics has nothing to do with deciding the society's structure, its
the belief system, thier conditioning which is not derrived from
genetics but social development/experience.. You guys are obsessed
with the material/physical and forget about the other side of
things..
I agree that each race/people/culture should have their own land with
their own laws, but no people should have to restrict themselves to
locals based on race, culture on the other hand, keep it there, share
but do not impose, embrace. Western culture is bent on imposing and
is poluted beyond comprehension.. Which is the "Lesser culture"
Western or that of pure naturality.
I think that race is more on the inside than on the outside. People
who think in terms of "racial purity" are only fixated on outside
characteristics, and accomplishments. But, of course, genetics always
plays a role. Blacks in the U.S. have, on average, 30% White
admixture, I believe. Their IQ averages 85. Sub-Saharan Blacks average
71-75, which is significantly lower.
So, if a white person marries a black person, he/she should know that
the children are likely to be less intelligent than if he/she marries
a white person. It is only fair that they should know this. It doesn't
matter if the Black person is intelligent. Due to the law of
regression the children will tend towards average IQ. Why should we
withhold such information? In all other circumstances it would be
regarded a scandal if authorities withheld the information that
children will become less intelligent. It also has a bearing on the
future economical success of the nations. Average IQ is coupled to BNP
per capita (Lynn & Vanhanen). In fact, our civilization is dependent
on intelligent people who will come up with new solution to the energy
problem, environmental problems, etc. If we put our valuable gentic
advantages to waste, it might prove devastating.
In my article "An Intrusion of Matriarchal Consciousness" I argue
that..."Broadly speaking, there is in the "white" culture a strife
toward higher accomplishment, an advancement of consciousness, a
movement of emancipation. But among certain ethnic groups one can
detect a general movement toward the other end, namely to belong in an
unconscious community, to swim with the tide. The psychic gradients, I
would argue, go in different directions."http:>home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/matriarchal.htm
Mats- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm puzzled by your reference to a 'law of regression'.  I vaguely
know about regression to the mean, but understand it to be an effect
which would apply regardless of race.
How do you account for the Flynn effect?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
Dave Smith
The regression to the mean is relevant to all races. American Blacks
regress to their average, 85, whereas Whites regress to their average,
100 (cf. Rushton).
The Flynn effect implies that IQ has increased somewhat over the
generations from the 1950s onwards. But this development peaks at a
certain figure. It has peaked in UK and in Denmark. I suppose that all
nations have a certain top IQ potential that can be reached with
better nutrition and schooling, etc. Epigenetics could play a role.
Anyway, IQ peaks at a certain figure. The IQ differential between the
races remains largely the same, I guess. But these questions must be
answered by an expert.
Mats
Peak? Actually there is some evidence of decline in some populations.
See

http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/fe/LinkedDocuments/Sundet2004.pdf

http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/fe/LinkedDocuments/teasdale2008.pdf

I think the evidence of decline is just as harmful to claims about
"stable differences between races" as is evidence of incremental gains
in IQ. For both kinds of finding suggest that IQ is not a "stable"
characteristic of a population at all. And if it is not a stable
characteristic of a population how can differences between groups be
stable?

Anyway

Lance
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...