The Ping-Pong Ball and The Sun / S D Rodrian

[Aardvark]

The Ping-Pong Ball and The Sun.

[A mind experiment--Therefore, if
you do not have a mind, forget it.]

Imagine a magical ping-pong ball
which is only affected by gravity.
That is its only quality. (Therefore
it can travel inside the Sun without
being destroyed.) Now...

This ping-pong ball is approaching
the surface of the Sun. As it does so
the pull of the Sun's gravity gradually
increases on the ping-pong ball.

[When it is at the Sun's surface,
the pull of the Sun's gravity on
the ping-pong ball will be at its
maximum.]

The instant the ping-pong ball plunges
past the surface of the Sun, the pull of
the Sun's gravity on the ping-pong ball
will begin to decrease.

[This is because as the ping-pong ball
travels closer and closer to the center
of the Sun: the mass pulling on the
ping-pong ball is decreasing, all the time
that there will be a growing amount of
Sun-mass behind it pulling back on it.]

Once the ping-pong ball reaches the center
of the Sun it will achieve gravity equilibrium
and lie forever suspended there (at the exact
center of a great hollow).

Conclusions from the above
thought experiment:

There is either a huge cavity at the center
of the Sun, or certainly a cavernous region
therein where there isn't as much Sun-
matter as there must be surrounding it.
According to the current laws of gravity.

However, current theory says that the center
of the Sun (of every star) is the place where
the greatest amount of pressure exists. In
fact: It is at the center of every star that the
fusion that keeps a star "going" is taking
place--exactly because this is the region of
the highest amount of gravitational pressures!

These are two self-excluding viewpoints:

One of them can be correct while the other
one is not. But both of them cannot be
correct at the same time: Either gravity exists
AND the center of the Sun (of every star) is
hollow. Or fusion DOES indeed take place
at the center of the stars because the center
of every star is its region of maximun
pressure--and therefore the effect of
gravity is "somehow" negated/voided
inside the stars. *

Which is it? SEE:

http://physics.sdrodrian.com

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian.com
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://mp3.sdrodrian.com

* Of course, once The Great Thinkers
(who once thought the world was flat,
that the universe revolved around the
Earth, that Dark Matter and Dark Energy
explained the observable deficiencies
of gravity, that the entire universe
erupted from a magic bean, and that
it was constructed of vibrating strings
tuned into existence by unimaginably
tiny mathematicians)... once The Great
Thinkers think on this self-contradiction
awhile I'm sure they will be able to
come up with any number of their usual
outrageously reality-denying/logic-
twisting solutions to this puzzle.

... when they could just visit:
http://physics.sdrodrian.com

And WHY have none of them even
thought about this self-contradiction
(when it's so impertinently obvious)...?

Well, because we teach our so-called
Great Thinkers to learn by rote: "2times3
is33...2times4is104...4times5is55..."
and so on. And we not only require
that they do not challenge the validity
of what we are "teaching them" but
we actually demand that they accept it
all as The Indisputable Truth Eternal:

Can you imagine what would happen
if when the Great Professor is mumbling
"7times3is859..." to his class a student
were to get up and exclaim: "Professor,
you, sir, are an ignorant baboon: 7 X 3
is 21." Now: What grade do you believe
such a mere student would get? And
what student does not understand this?

By the way: The dramatization above is
an exaggeration for purposes of illustration
only. [This disclaimer is always required
when addressing former students of all
such universities, I'm sorry to say. SDR]

Ah! O well ...

******************************

"Virgil" wrote that

Newton proved a long time ago that the
gravitational attraction at its
center due to a body with radially symmetric
mass distribution is always zero.

He did not prove (and it is not true) that
gravitational field strength must
decrease when moving closer to the the centre
of the radially symmetric
sphere. Whilst it is zero at the centre, it is
arbitrarily large arbitrarily
close to the centre (at least in Newtonian physics).

You're going to have to cite here.

Meanwhile, understand this: Newton
had no idea whatsoever what made the Sun
(or any star) burn the way they did/do/does:

It was not until around Einstein's time that
astrophysicists would at last able to put together
a cohesive theory of how the Sun is able to
ignite and sustain a self-perpetuating fusion
furnace--and all the data says that this is only
possible at the most central portion of the core:
there just isn't enough pressure outside it to
bring matter close enough together to produce
the required sustained fusion. Look it up.

The problem, of course, is that all the theories
of gravity produce NOT the greatest pressure
at the Sun's (and any other star's) core but a
great big hollow (or, at the least, a horrific
decrease of the gravitational "concentration
of matter" required to "push it/bring it together"
close enough for fusion to occur!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Newton never gave this a thought (it never
troubled him in the least that his theories of
gravity said that the Sun could not possibly
be working--turned ON--) for the simple
reason that he did not KNOW that the Sun
worked by means of nuclear FUSION and
that the only way nuclear fusion can be
produced inside the Sun is if the greatest
(not the least, but the highest) possible
pressures are concentrated at the Sun's core.

Had he known this, it would have blown
his mind--until he went on the Internet, of
course, and visited:

http://physics.sdrodrian.com

learning there, from Mister Rodrian, the
correct way in which the universe works.

It would not have changed his theories of
motion/gravity. It would simply have made
them actual. Hoorah!

********************************

Newton proves a long time ago that the
gravitational attraction at its
center due to a body with radially symmetric
mass distribution is always zero.
Note that this is the case even though that
mass distribution has mass at it center.

Newton "conveniently" leaves out the
matter of "pressures" at that center, just
as exactly what gravity might be was
something he knew was beyond his field
of knowledge:

If you propose that there is ANY pressure
at all at the Sun's center, then you will
need to explain where such pressure
comes from... considering that the "left
inner wall surface" [of my proposed
hollow at the Sun's center] is under MORE
gravitational pull from the left wall than
from the right wall (on the other side of
that hollow): There may be as much mass
in the right wall as in the left wall, yes,
but the mass of the left wall is obviously
closer to the "left inner wall surface."

You may stuff as much mass as you
like at the Sun's center--just explain
the mechanism which does the "stuffing."

For what's the use of merely noting one
has spotted a phenomenon--without also
attempting to explain it, when explaining
phenomena is the highest aim of science.

NOTE: Einstein's mind was of a clever
but lazy nature, thereby (the moronic
mathematical fudge factor so-called
"cosmological constant"). You have
to understand that relativity only
describes gravity in the way it is seen
to work; Einstein too never goes so far
as to even try to explain by what means
it might be working. And so it remains.
[The so-called "graviton" is merely a
theoretical proposal ... it is a physical
impossibility, but it's the only thing
they have--It is in Einstein's mind that
it is a physical impossibility because it
would require instantaneous action
at impossible distances, a problem
which itself drove Einstein to come up
with gravity as a strictly geometrical
description instead of a "real" (physical)
solution as might be provided by a
possible graviton. Like Newton, Einstein
recognized that explaining what gravity
actually was... was quite beyond his field
of knowledge.]

Today we can see the problems of lacking
a real/actual understanding of what gravity
actually is when everywhere we look gravity
seems to misbehave; The galaxies do not
behave as if they were perfectly observing
the laws of gravity (acording to which they
should all be flying apart). Not to mention
the problem of the Sun & the Ping-Pong ball.

*******************************

Once the ping-pong ball reaches the center
of the Sun it will achieve gravity equilibrium
and lie forever suspended there (at the exact
center of a great hollow).

You must have assumed friction on your
magic ping-pong ball.

Actually no: I imagined that, according to
Newton, once it reached the exact center
of the Sun it struck an identical ping-pong
ball coming at it with the same force (where
they both magically combined into a single
bigger ping-pong ball). I'm used to dealing
with these questions: When I told my little
nephew the story of Pinocchio he seemed
much more interested in knowing WHY the
toy-maker had made him with a bellows-
mechanism for talking; How did he know
Pinocchio was going to be doing any talking!

This next paragraph is without merit.

Gee, I wonder why--

According to the current laws of gravity.

Nope.

Any particular reason why not?

In fact: It is at the center of every star that the
fusion that keeps a star "going" is taking
place--exactly because this is the region of
the highest amount of gravitational pressures!

Because the temperature pressure and density
are high enough for fusion reactions to take place.

You seem to know this. And yet it eludes you
that my post is all about challenging you to tell me
where that "high enough" pressure is coming from!

*************************************

The ping pong ball cannot be. And if it were
the pressure of the mass it has penetrated
will crush it not attract it.

It is a magic ping-pong ball. You missed that
didn't you!

Have a good time. johnreed

Man! You have no idea!

********************************

... were the heck did the big hollow
come from???

There's always one in every crowd. This
is why I'd rather shoot myself in the foot
than teach!

***************************

[When it is at the Sun's surface,
the pull of the Sun's gravity on
the ping-pong ball will be at its
maximum.]
The instant the ping-pong ball plunges
past the surface of the Sun, the pull of
the Sun's gravity on the ping-pong ball
will begin to decrease.

It is always true if the body has constant
density, but the Sun doesn't.

Another Pinocchio explanation required.

You also missed the fact that the highest
gravitational pull "down" is NOT at the
surface of a sphere but a little bit up from
it (since at the surface part of that pull
will be defrayed from the sphere's sides).

*********************************

Define "surface" of a plasma density gradient.

Sure: Soon as yer notice a change in that density.

Define "surface" of a plasma density gradient.

Sure: Soon as yer notice a change in that density.

[This is because as the ping-pong ball
travels closer and closer to the center
of the Sun: the mass pulling on the
ping-pong ball is decreasing, all the time
that there will be a growing amount of
Sun-mass behind it pulling back on it.]

No it won't. This is because the density gradient
is non-homogeneous.

Yes it is, if I so command it: This being a
thought experiment of mine, I can make of it
anything I wish. Even a giraffe. Live with it.

Oh... I thought you said there was a fuckin'
ping pong ball there...

Read my post again: It's about this ping-pong
ball slowly making its way there. Albeit, I
don't recall saying it started having sex once
it got there: You made that part up.

Make up your non-existent mind.

I made it up: Now it exists! That was easy.

... any hollow magic ping pong ball will
be crushed.

Not if my magic is strong enough. And
I have VERY nice thoughts--My magic is
therefore unstoppable! [Frankly, I don't
believe you've quite grasped the concept
of "magic."]

... magic ping pong balls
don't even make it to the bottom
of my kitchen sink, they FLOAT.

I take it you have spent a lot of time
plunging magic ping-pong balls into your
sink then: May I suggest a girl-friend.
She'll smack you up the side of yer head:
Fix'ya right up.

All right now, I knew this is where I'd
eventually end up: Listen up! Once there
was a toy maker named Geppetto ...

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian.com
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://mp3.sdrodrian.com



.

[ZerkonXXXX]

Post by Aardvark
As it does so
the pull of the Sun's gravity
gradually increases on the ping-pong ball.

I believe this to be incorrect and then leads to your problem.

Here is what I understand:

Gravity is not that of the sun alone. A gravitational center does not
equate with the center of the sun or any mass. The ball travels to one
gravitational center which is influenced by all object mass (motion).

Recent discoveries of other planets were based on this, as I understand
it. Observed suns wobbled in relation to (large) planets orbiting in it's
system. I believe as logically true that if more accurate observations
could be made, all other planets in the same system could be detected in
the same way.

This counters the idea of gravitational equilibrium as a rest state. Or
'rest' only reflecting limits of observation. Gravitational forces and
their centers change perpetually as mass changes perpetually.

But then this is not really "great thinking".

[Flammarion]

Post by Aardvark
The Ping-Pong Ball and The Sun.
[A mind experiment--Therefore, if
you do not have a mind, forget it.]
Imagine a magical ping-pong ball
which is only affected by gravity.
That is its only quality. (Therefore
it can travel inside the Sun without
being destroyed.) Now...
This ping-pong ball is approaching
the surface of the Sun. As it does so
the pull of the Sun's gravity gradually
increases on the ping-pong ball.
[When it is at the Sun's surface,
the pull of the Sun's gravity on
the ping-pong ball will be at its
maximum.]
The instant the ping-pong ball plunges
past the surface of the Sun, the pull of
the Sun's gravity on the ping-pong ball
will begin to decrease.
[This is because as the ping-pong ball
travels closer and closer to the center
of the Sun: the mass pulling on the
ping-pong ball is decreasing, all the time
that there will be a growing amount of
Sun-mass behind it pulling back on it.]
Once the ping-pong ball reaches the center
of the Sun it will achieve gravity equilibrium
and lie forever suspended there (at the exact
center of a great hollow).
Conclusions from the above
There is either a huge cavity at the center
of the Sun, or certainly a cavernous region
therein where there isn't as much Sun-
matter as there must be surrounding it.

That doesn;t follow from anything you said. Gravity is
zeor at the centre of a solid sphere and also at the centre
of a hollow sphere or speherical shell.

Post by Aardvark
According to the current laws of gravity.
However, current theory says that the center
of the Sun (of every star) is the place where
the greatest amount of pressure exists.

Yep. If you compress everything from every direction at once, it;s
pressure rises. Nonethless, all the vectors cancel at the exact
center.

Why are you posting this to philosophy?

[Aardvark]

Obviously the ping-pong ball overwhelmed
the fragile minds of many of the posters
here (I only used it as strictly a focusing
device, but far far too many poor souls here
were simply dumbfounded by a ping-pong
ball inside the Sun and wrecked their brains
over how it was reacting in there). And
this in spite of my warning then that if they
didn't have a mind they ought not try to
work their way through my [sic.] "mind"
experiment. Forget the ping-pong ball guys:
I only chose it, instead of a golf ball, say,
because it (too) most ironically is hollow.
Now, consider, instead:

Superman and The Sun Experiment.

[A thought experiment--further simplified
now for those who just cannot get past the
ping-pong ball of the original experiment.]

NOTE: This is happening in an universe
in which gravity behaves as everybody
thinks it does (Newton, Einstein, & you):

And, why Superman?
Because not only is
Superman immune
to gravity, while still
able to feel it (we've
often seen him just
floating about in many
of his movies but
we've never seen him
floating away every
time he closes his
eyes)... but he is also
actually strengthened
by the rays of our
yellow Sun--Therefore
he actually becomes
most superest of all
INSIDE the Sun!

The problem, of course was: getting a
hold of him. Luckily I knew where Lois
Lane worked and gave her a ring, in
exchange for which she quickly agreed
to help me meet him (Superman--By
the way, his name is Super Man not
"Joey Superman" or other, it's just that
he's not uppity and never insists he be
called MISTER Man): I very quickly
explained the nature of my experiment
to Super Man, and he agreed to undertake
to travel to the center of the Sun for the
sake of those poor souls who would
never grasp the meaning/purpose of
this thought experiment because they
had been struck dumb by the only thing
they were able to see from that instant
onwards, namely the bouncing ping-
pong ball.

--Your announcer is Mr. Maxwell Smart:

BEGIN THOUGHT EXPERIMENT

Now: Imagine Superman approaching
the surface of the Sun.

As he does so he feels the pull of the
Sun's gravity gradually increasing.

[When he is at the Sun's surface, or
pretty near it, Superman will feel the
pull of the Sun's gravity to be at its
maximum.]

The instant Superman plunges past the
surface of the Sun, he will feel the pull
of the Sun's gravity begin to decrease.
And it will continue to decrease as he
flies towards the Sun's center.

[This is because as Superman travels
closer and closer to the center of the
Sun: the amount of Sun mass pulling
on him is decreasing, all the time that
there will be a growing amount of Sun-
mass behind him pulling back on his
super body. We can set aside the Sun
mass to the sides, but we must still
subtract it from the "pulling" mass.]

Once Superman reaches the center of the
Sun he will feel either no gravity there (or
very little if any); and, if he so wishes, he
can lie there forever just floating about
impervious to all INCLUDING gravity (at
the exact center of a great hollow which
the laws of gravity tell us will be found
thereabouts because most of the matter
at the center of the Sun will have been
"pulled" away from its center [there may
remain a single hydrogen atom at the exact
gravitational center of this hollow... but
certainly during 5 billion years of "pulling"
most other atoms will have been pulled
aside because they could NOT also be at
the exact gravitational center unless they
were one system, of course. If there is a
perfect hollow it is because its "left inner
wall surface" is under MORE gravitational
pull from the left wall than from the right
wall (on the other side of that hollow):
There may be as much mass in the right
wall of The Great Hollow as in the left
wall of The Great Hollow, yes, but the
mass of the left wall of The Great Hollow
is obviously closer to the "left inner wall
surface" [to quote a certain Mr. Rodrian].

Or Superman can, as he did, leave the
inside of the Sun to report on his findings.
I am sure that many posters here would
have wanted me to ask Superman why he
wears his yellowing underwear on the
outside of his pants and neat-o stuff like
that--but he suddenly had to fly off, as
he saw that Lois, in reaching for an aspirin,
had swallowed a suicide pill she was
doing a story on instead and died. Now
Superman would have to travel back in
time a couple of hours to save her... yet
again! [Thank you Mister Smart.]

END THOUGHT EXPERIMENT

Now, what are the implications of this
thought experiment? [Hint: They have
nothing whatever to do with Superman,
and, nor with Lois Lane either.]

1. From the size of the Sun brainiacs've
calculated that the only place in it
where there's enough gravitational
pressure to produce fusion is in a
relatively compact central core. Most
of the Sun is just plasma so loosely
flying about that it's hard for enough
matter to be brought close enough
for atoms & stuff like that to smash
together in order to sustain a fusion
chain-reaction.

2. The only method brainiacs know of
to produce the required pressures is
if gravity is trying to push all the
mass of the Sun into its very core.

3. And yet, as illustrated by Superman's
voyage, the very laws of gravity tell
us that once you start getting closer
and closer to such a central core, the
gravitational pressure should steadily
decrease rather than increase: a very
substantial mass of the Sun ought to
be moving away from its central core.

Now, most posters here will probably
wish to know if I asked Super Man for
his autograph or something like that.
But, not for those posters but, for those
persons with a mind, some very deeply
fundamental questions about reality will
now have to be addressed:

1. Is the Sun the result of gravity, as
we have heretofore understood gravity?

2. Obviously there exists the required
pressure at the Sun's core for fusion
to occur, or the Sun would not be ON.

3. How does that pressure come to be,
if the laws of gravity as we understand
them tell us it ought not exist there!

This is certainly a self-contradiction
the existence of which is telling us
something very profound about the
nature of how we understand reality
(apparently we are misunderstanding
it somewhere/somehow).

CONTINUANCE:

These are two self-excluding viewpoints:

One of them can be correct while the other
one is not. But both of them cannot be
correct at the same time: Either gravity exists
AND the center of the Sun (of every star) is
hollow. Or fusion DOES indeed take place
at the center of the stars because the center
of every star is its region of maximum
pressure--and therefore the effect of
gravity is "somehow" negated/voided
inside the stars. *

Which is it? SEE:

http://thesolutionisthis.com

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian.com
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://mp3.sdrodrian.com

* Of course, once The Great Thinkers
(who once thought the world was flat,
that the universe revolved around the
Earth, that Dark Matter and Dark Energy
explained the observable deficiencies
of gravity, that the entire universe
erupted from a magic bean, and that
it was constructed of vibrating strings
tuned into existence by unimaginably
tiny mathematicians)... once The Great
Thinkers think on this self-contradiction
awhile I'm sure they will be able to
come up with any number of their usual
outrageously reality-denying/logic-
twisting solutions to this puzzle.

... when they could just visit:
http://physics.sdrodrian.com

And WHY have none of them even
thought about this self-contradiction
(when it's so impertinently obvious)...?

Well, because we teach our so-called
Great Thinkers to learn by rote: "2times3
is33...2times4is104...4times5is55..."
and so on. And we not only require
that they do not challenge the validity
of what we are "teaching them" but
we actually demand that they accept it
all as The Indisputable Truth Eternal:

Can you imagine what would happen
if when the Great Professor is mumbling
"7times3is859..." to his class a student
were to get up and exclaim: "Professor,
you, sir, are an ignorant baboon: 7 X 3
is 21." Now: What grade do you believe
such a mere student would get? And
what student does not understand this?

By the way: The dramatization above is
an exaggeration for purposes of illustration
only. [This disclaimer is always required
when addressing former students of all
such universities, I'm sorry to say. SDR]

Ah! O well ...

*******************************
IN THE FOLLOWING REPLIES TO POSTERS
I HAVE SOME HARMLESS FUN PLAYING
PING-PONG. HOPE YOU ENJOY THEM TOO:
*******************************

Post by Aardvark
Once the ping-pong ball reaches the center
of the Sun it will achieve gravity equilibrium
and lie forever suspended there (at the exact
center of a great hollow).

As I have already told you, the ping-pong ball
will oscillate about the sun's centre.

Fred: The entire universe just changed
and you missed it because you were too busy
watching a ping-pong ball oscillating! [I
guess it's true, as the poet says: "A small
mind is always closer to the details."] Now
you will have to wait until somebody points
out to you that the universe has changed--
Is that your phone ringing? You may be
about to get lucky. Answer it!

********************************

"Virgil" wrote that

Post by Aardvark
Newton proved a long time ago that the
gravitational attraction at its
center due to a body with radially symmetric
mass distribution is always zero.

He did not prove (and it is not true) that
gravitational field strength must
decrease when moving closer to the the centre
of the radially symmetric
sphere. Whilst it is zero at the centre, it is
arbitrarily large arbitrarily
close to the centre (at least in Newtonian physics).

Post by Aardvark
You're going to have to cite here.

Cite? That somebody didn't prove something, and
its not true?

No. You're going to have to cite on how
my "magical ping-pong ball which is only
affected by gravity" behaves otherwise than
how I described it does in my post. Please do.

You, and other posters, obviously do not
believe in magic. And for your benefit I then
provided a way for my "magical ping-pong
ball which is only affected by gravity" to stop
at the center of the Sun's Great Hollow:

START QUOTE

Actually no: I imagined that, according to
Newton, once it reached the exact center
of the Sun it struck an identical ping-pong
ball coming at it with the same force (where
they both magically combined into a single
bigger ping-pong ball). I'm used to dealing
with these questions: When I told my little
nephew the story of Pinocchio he seemed
much more interested in knowing WHY the
toy-maker had made him with a bellows-
mechanism for talking; How did he know
Pinocchio was going to be doing any talking!

END QUOTE

I hope this satisfies you. But if it doesn't
then please by all means do cite how it is
possible for my "magical ping-pong ball
which is only affected by gravity" to move
otherwise than however I say it does.

It will be interesting to hear it, I'm sure.

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian.com
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://mp3s.sdrodrian.com

********************************

Meanwhile, understand this: Newton
had no idea whatsoever what made the Sun
(or any star) burn the way they did/do/does:

It was not until around Einstein's time that
astrophysicists would at last able to put together
a cohesive theory of how the Sun is able to
ignite and sustain a self-perpetuating fusion
furnace--and all the data says that this is only
possible at the most central portion of the core:
there just isn't enough pressure outside it to
bring matter close enough together to produce
the required sustained fusion. Look it up.

The problem, of course, is that all the theories
of gravity produce NOT the greatest pressure
at the Sun's (and any other star's) core but a
great big hollow (or, at the least, a horrific
decrease of the gravitational "concentration
of matter" required to "push it/bring it together"
close enough for fusion to occur!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Newton never gave this a thought (it never
troubled him in the least that his theories of
gravity said that the Sun could not possibly
be working--turned ON--) for the simple
reason that he did not KNOW that the Sun
worked by means of nuclear FUSION and
that the only way nuclear fusion can be
produced inside the Sun is if the greatest
(not the least, but the highest) possible
pressures are concentrated at the Sun's core.

Had he known this, it would have blown
his mind--until he went on the Internet, of
course, and visited:

http://physics.sdrodrian.com

learning there, from Mister Rodrian, the
correct way in which the universe works.

It would not have changed his theories of
motion/gravity. It would simply have made
them actual. Hoorah!

**********************************

Newton "conveniently" leaves out the
matter of "pressures" at that center, just
as exactly what gravity might be was
something he knew was beyond his field
of knowledge:

If you propose that there is ANY pressure
at all at the Sun's center, then you will
need to explain where such pressure
comes from... considering that the "left
inner wall surface" [of my proposed
hollow at the Sun's center] is under MORE
gravitational pull from the left wall than
from the right wall (on the other side of
that hollow): There may be as much mass
in the right wall as in the left wall, yes,
but the mass of the left wall is obviously
closer to the "left inner wall surface."

You may stuff as much mass as you
like at the Sun's center--just explain
the mechanism which does the "stuffing."

For what's the use of merely noting one
has spotted a phenomenon--without also
attempting to explain it, when explaining
phenomena is the highest aim of science.

NOTE: Einstein's mind was of a clever
but lazy nature, thereby (the moronic
mathematical fudge factor so-called
"cosmological constant"). You have
to understand that relativity only
describes gravity in the way it is seen
to work; Einstein too never goes so far
as to even try to explain by what means
it might be working. And so it remains.
[The so-called "graviton" is merely a
theoretical proposal ... it is a physical
impossibility, but it's the only thing
they have--It is in Einstein's mind that
it is a physical impossibility because it
would require instantaneous action
at impossible distances, a problem
which itself drove Einstein to come up
with gravity as a strictly geometrical
description instead of a "real" (physical)
solution as might be provided by a
possible graviton. Like Newton, Einstein
recognized that explaining what gravity
actually was... was quite beyond his field
of knowledge.]

Today we can see the problems of lacking
a real/actual understanding of what gravity
actually is when everywhere we look gravity
seems to misbehave; The galaxies do not
behave as if they were perfectly observing
the laws of gravity (acording to which they
should all be flying apart). Not to mention
the problem of the Sun & the Ping-Pong ball.

*******************************

Post by Aardvark
Once the ping-pong ball reaches the center
of the Sun it will achieve gravity equilibrium
and lie forever suspended there (at the exact
center of a great hollow).

You must have assumed friction on your
magic ping-pong ball.

Actually no: I imagined that, according to
Newton, once it reached the exact center
of the Sun it struck an identical ping-pong
ball coming at it with the same force (where
they both magically combined into a single
bigger ping-pong ball). I'm used to dealing
with these questions: When I told my little
nephew the story of Pinocchio he seemed
much more interested in knowing WHY the
toy-maker had made him with a bellows-
mechanism for talking; How did he know
Pinocchio was going to be doing any talking!

This next paragraph is without merit.

Gee, I wonder why--

Post by Aardvark
According to the current laws of gravity.

Nope.

Any particular reason why not?

Post by Aardvark
In fact: It is at the center of every star that the
fusion that keeps a star "going" is taking
place--exactly because this is the region of
the highest amount of gravitational pressures!

Because the temperature pressure and density
are high enough for fusion reactions to take place.

You seem to know this. And yet it eludes you
that my post is all about challenging you to tell me
where that "high enough" pressure is coming from!

*************************************

The ping pong ball cannot be. And if it were
the pressure of the mass it has penetrated
will crush it not attract it.

It is a magic ping-pong ball. You missed that
didn't you!

Have a good time. johnreed

Man! You have no idea!

*******************************
SEE: THIS IS WHY I HAD TO RECRUIT
SUPERMAN TO TAKE THE PLACE OF THE
MAGIC PING-PONG BALL!
********************************

... were the heck did the big hollow
come from???

There's always one in every crowd. This
is why I'd rather shoot myself in the foot
than teach!

***************************

Post by Aardvark
[When it is at the Sun's surface,
the pull of the Sun's gravity on
the ping-pong ball will be at its
maximum.]
The instant the ping-pong ball plunges
past the surface of the Sun, the pull of
the Sun's gravity on the ping-pong ball
will begin to decrease.

It is always true if the body has constant
density, but the Sun doesn't.

Another Pinocchio explanation required.

You also missed the fact that the highest
gravitational pull "down" is NOT at the
surface of a sphere but a little bit up from
it (since at the surface part of that pull
will be defrayed from the sphere's sides).

*********************************

Define "surface" of a plasma density gradient.

Sure: Soon as yer notice a change in that density.

Define "surface" of a plasma density gradient.

Sure: Soon as yer notice a change in that density.

Post by Aardvark
[This is because as the ping-pong ball
travels closer and closer to the center
of the Sun: the mass pulling on the
ping-pong ball is decreasing, all the time
that there will be a growing amount of
Sun-mass behind it pulling back on it.]

No it won't. This is because the density gradient
is non-homogeneous.

Yes it is, if I so command it: This being a
thought experiment of mine, I can make of it
anything I wish. Even a giraffe. Live with it.

Oh... I thought you said there was a fuckin'
ping pong ball there...

Read my post again: It's about this ping-pong
ball slowly making its way there. Albeit, I
don't recall saying it started having sex once
it got there: You made that part up.

Make up your non-existent mind.

I made it up: Now it exists! That was easy.

... any hollow magic ping pong ball will
be crushed.

Not if my magic is strong enough. And
I have VERY nice thoughts--My magic is
therefore unstoppable! [Frankly, I don't
believe you've quite grasped the concept
of "magic."]

... magic ping pong balls
don't even make it to the bottom
of my kitchen sink, they FLOAT.

I take it you have spent a lot of time
plunging magic ping-pong balls into your
sink then: May I suggest a girl-friend.
She'll smack you up the side of yer head:
Fix'ya right up.

All right now, I knew this is where I'd
eventually end up: Listen up! Once there
was a toy maker named Geppetto ...

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian.com
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://mp3.sdrodrian.com



.


Flammarion asked:
Why are you posting this to philosophy?

Because of Horatio.

.

[Aardvark]

On Oct 10, 2:35 am, "Peter Webb"

Post by Aardvark
The instant Superman plunges past the
surface of the Sun, he will feel the pull
of the Sun's gravity begin to decrease.
And it will continue to decrease as he
flies towards the Sun's center.
[This is because as Superman travels
closer and closer to the center of the
Sun: the amount of Sun mass pulling
on him is decreasing, all the time that
there will be a growing amount of Sun-
mass behind him pulling back on his
super body. We can set aside the Sun
mass to the sides, but we must still
subtract it from the "pulling" mass.]

Incorrect. Whilst the amount of "Sun mass"
pulling on him decreases, so does
his distance from the centre of the Sun
which causes the force of gravity to
increase (by a factor proportional to 1/r^2).

Do you even read what you're typing?
What you have just said is that "while he
is getting closer to the center of the Sun
his distance from the center of the Sun
decreases!" Your thinking processes may be
impaired, perhaps by alcohol (speculation).
I don't believe it is worth wasting time trying
to make you "see" that as he travels closer to
the center of he Sun the amount of mass "pulling
on him" is always decreasing--And how a
decreasing amount of mass can increase the
pull of gravity is something like expecting a
pebble resting on the surface of the earth to
suddenly fly off into space on its own!

The mass decreases, but the distance to the centre
of the mass also decreases...

Please STOP RIGHT THERE: don't repeat the
nonsense you wrote (which I paraphrased
perhaps with too much sarcasm), Follow the
consequences of gravity acting on Superman
as he approaches the center of the Sun (NOT
in reality BUT as the laws of gravity would
have it be):

The Sun is not solid but a plasma ball. This
means it can expand (or contract) as much as
it needs to in order to accommodate behaving
as the laws of gravity say it ought to behave:

This means that every particle in it is free to
move to its region of the greatest gravitational
field strength from its region of lowest
gravitational field strength (even in its core,
which may be 10 times denser than lead, but
is still a plasma).

Are you suggesting that every one such particle
will move to the area of the least gravitational
field strength from the area of the highest
gravitational field strength? That's the whole
point of this series of posts right there.

There is no question that the Sun works exactly
as we all believe it does and that the highest
pressure exists at its core (I just told you how
much pressure there is there producing a
density 10 times greater than that of lead).

The question to consider is NOT how the SUN
actually behaves, but how would a plasma ball
like the Sun behave were it indeed obeying the
classically delineated laws of gravity (that say the
strength of gravity acting on a body descending
to its center decreases. Do you understand now?

I guess it's true: no one understands sarcasm.

A solid ball may convey pressures from one point
to others, but a plasma ball like the Sun would
(were it only under the design of gravity alone)
eventually describe in space the field(s) of gravity
acting upon it ... exactly like iron filings describe
the fields of a magnet acting on them.

And then you would have to "see" its mass (the
equivalent of the magnet's iron filings) describing
a "more massive" shell around a "less massive"
center.

We don't see that (in fact, it is a physical
impossibility because then the Sun would not
be ON).

Don't miss the forest for the trees.

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://mp3.sdrodrian.com


.

[Aardvark]

If the universe operated as described
by classical laws of gravity (e.g. via
your mythical graviton) then probably
the Sun would look like a big frozen
planet (along with every other star).
The "shell" might simply descend in
density to a least dense center, that's all.

The Sun is a fluid.
On earth, more dense objects sink in fluids,
and less dense objects float.
But you believe that on the Sun, the highest
density matter floats on top of
less dense matter?

You're not thinking straight:

I do not claim that the universe works
in any way differently from how we
know it works.

I do know that if gravity were producing
"the effects of gravity," then the universe
could NOT work the way we know it works
(from the way gravity should work if it were
to work according to its own laws).

ERGO my scenario of a "less dense core"
for the Sun... if the universe worked according
to the laws of gavity.

The Sun does not actually have a less
dense core BECAUSE (see Newton's laws
of motion) since the beginning of the
universe everything in it has been
accelerating towards ITS CENTER(s).

NOTE: Not towards "a" center because
the sum total of its matter IS its center.
THERE is no other matter in the universe
than matter---I know this simplicity
is hard for monkeys to grasp. And I have
great sympathy for you, believe me.
But eventually you will all understand it;
just as you now understand that the math
that proved Ptolemy's earh-centered notion
didn't really prove anything except perhaps
the over-cleverness of us monkeys.

In affect, the universe is acting like
THE MOTHER OF ALL BLACK HOLES
with every "bit of matter in it" being
its "point of infinite density" (the very
obviously misnamed "singularity").

EVERYTHING about us is telling us
this is the case, but we are not yet
prepared (as a monkey society) to see it
(only I can see it--others may see it as
well, or perhaps blurrily, sooner or later).

THAT is why denser (the more mass, given
the same space) stuff "moves" toward center
with "greater weight" (more impetus) than
less massive matter (and why nearly mass-
less particles like the photon seen to shoot
about AT AN ALMOST INCREDIBLY CONSTANT
SPEED regardless of where in the universe
they are). And without knowing each other.

And why, the photon, after it slows down
while passing through a denser medium
suddenly re-speeds up after it hits a less
dense medium, and WITHOUT having to fire
any after-burners!

It's all explained from several different angles
at:

http://physics.sdrodrian.com

and in a plain/simple English language
which even a six year old can follow.

See if you can,

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian.com
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://mp3.sdrodrian.com

.

[Aardvark]

On Oct 26, 1:51 am, BradGuth

Gravity Force Inside a Spherical Shell
(is always zero)

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/Mechanics/sphshell2.html#wtls

So, how thick is the shell or
gaseous outer wall of our sun?

If the universe operated as described
by classical laws of gravity (e.g. via
your mythical graviton) then probably
the Sun would look like a big frozen
planet (along with every other star).
The "shell" might simply descend in
density to a least dense center, that's all.

Fortunately the universe doesn't look
inside the craniums of men to learn
how it's permitted to work (or not):

Eventually men LEARN the Earth isn't flat.
That the universe does not revolve around
their itty bitty planet. And that the reason
why gravitational anomalies suffuse the
universe everywhere they look is NOT
because "God likes lo create complex
puzzles with wandering planets, and
gravitational forces that don't act on the
parts of a mass just on the whole of it"
BUT because they have yet to fully grasp
(understand) exactly how perfectly simple
the workings of the universe really are.

You can learn a bit of it by traveling to:

http://physics.sdrodrian.com

You will have to shut your mind to the bunk
more primitive monkeys than you have come
up with throughout theis ascent from more
primitive ages... to our howling day. But it
can be done (by most monkeys, if not all).

Good luck!

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian.com
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://mp3.sdrodrian.com




.

[Tomm Carr]

Post by Aardvark
The Ping-Pong Ball and The Sun.
[When it is at the Sun's surface,
the pull of the Sun's gravity on
the ping-pong ball will be at its
maximum.]
The instant the ping-pong ball plunges
past the surface of the Sun, the pull of
the Sun's gravity on the ping-pong ball
will begin to decrease.
[This is because as the ping-pong ball
travels closer and closer to the center
of the Sun: the mass pulling on the
ping-pong ball is decreasing, all the time
that there will be a growing amount of
Sun-mass behind it pulling back on it.]
Once the ping-pong ball reaches the center
of the Sun it will achieve gravity equilibrium
and lie forever suspended there (at the exact
center of a great hollow).
Conclusions from the above

Your conclusions are flawed for a very simple reason. What you have done
is a rhetorical sleight-of-hand which, like a good magician, gets us
looking in one direction while the action is taking place in the other.
You get everyone looking only a gravity and missing the other forces at
work.

What you say about gravity is true: it is greatest on the surface and
will cancel out -- be effectively zero -- in the center. Pressure, otoh,
will be least on the surface and greatest in the center.

How is that? Because the pressure is not the result of gravity acting
directly on the ping-pong ball. It is the result of gravity acting on
everything else.

At the surface, and at all points under the surface until it gets to the
center, gravity is pulling the ball towards the center. In fact, gravity
is pulling all the hydrogen (yes, helium and other elements too -- but
vastly more hydrogen) toward the center. Once at the center, gravity is
no longer effecting the ping-pong ball, but it is still effecting the
trillions of trillions of trillions of tons of hydrogen, all being
pulled, and generating pressure, toward the center -- directly at the
hapless ping-pong ball. This exerts, as could well be imagined, a good
deal of pressure on said ping-pong ball.

You can even perform a real-world experiment to observe this principle,
using a real ping-pong ball and a swimming pool. At the surface, there
is no pressure on the ball -- it floats there quite happily. But cup
your hand over it and push it to the bottom of the deep end. By the time
you get to the bottom of the pool, the ball should be thoroughly
crushed. By gravity? No, the amount of gravity pulling on the ball will
not have changed significantly from the top of the pool to the bottom.
It was all that water on top of the ball that generated the pressure.

[Aardvark]

On Nov 1, 3:39 am, Tomm Carr

Post by Tomm Carr

Post by Aardvark
The Ping-Pong Ball and The Sun.
[When it is at the Sun's surface,
the pull of the Sun's gravity on
the ping-pong ball will be at its
maximum.]
The instant the ping-pong ball plunges
past the surface of the Sun, the pull of
the Sun's gravity on the ping-pong ball
will begin to decrease.
[This is because as the ping-pong ball
travels closer and closer to the center
of the Sun: the mass pulling on the
ping-pong ball is decreasing, all the time
that there will be a growing amount of
Sun-mass behind it pulling back on it.]
Once the ping-pong ball reaches the center
of the Sun it will achieve gravity equilibrium
and lie forever suspended there (at the exact
center of a great hollow).
Conclusions from the above

Your conclusions are flawed for
a very simple reason.

Thank God! I hate it when my conclusions
are flawed because of very complex reasons.

Post by Tomm Carr
What you have done
is a rhetorical sleight-of-hand which,
like a good magician, gets us
looking in one direction while the action
is taking place in the other.

See: This is why there should be a law
against those TV programs that reveal how
the tricks of magicians like me are done.

Post by Tomm Carr
You get everyone looking only at gravity
and missing the other forces at work.

That's in the other forces' work contract.

Post by Tomm Carr
What you say about gravity is true: it is
greatest on the surface and
will cancel out -- be effectively zero -- in
the center. Pressure, otoh,
will be least on the surface and greatest
in the center.

You're thinking of a bowling ball there, friend:

[The Sun is not a bowling ball: If it were,
we'd know where the pressure was coming
from--But since the Sun is a ball of gas/plasma,
it should perfectly "describes" the impression
of gravity upon its matter ... exactly like the
magnetic fields of a magnet's poles "describe"
themselves on iron filings spread out on
a sheet of paper under which you move said
magnet. Do the experiment yourself. Remember:
There is NO WAY for one of the Sun's "filings"
(or: atomic particle) to "push" another anywhere:
They should all travel towards where they are
"pulled" by gravity. ERGO: If the Sun were
indeed being "shaped" by gravity, there would
be no/little pressure towards the core to carry out
any fusion reaction. That is a physical fact which
nothing in your philosophy can dispute. THERE
IS fusion going on at the Sun's core, otherwise
it'd be a big ole bowling ball.] Therefore, Tommy

Trust me: The Sun (and every other heavenly body)
is being shaped/worked by "something" other than
your laws of gravity. Go read all about it at:

http://physics.sdrodrian.com

The answer is PAINFULLY simple: It HAD to be,
otherwise IT COULDN'T BE--Even Einstein knew
this, when he said that "God does not play dice."
("Physicists have suggested that the laws and
constants of physics are too good - as if the
universe were set up to favour life's evolution.
It is as though there were, say, half a dozen dials
representing the major constants of physics. Each
of the dials could in principle be tuned to any of
a wide range of values. Almost all of these knob-
twiddlings would yield a universe in which life
would be impossible. Some universes would fizzle
out within the first picosecond. Others would
contain no elements heavier than hydrogen and
helium. In yet others, matter would never condense
into stars (and you need stars in order to forge
the elements of chemistry and hence life). You
can estimate the very low odds against the six
knobs all just happening to be correctly tuned,
and conclude that a divine knob-twiddler must have
been at work" IF you do not understand that the
sequence is not one of six disparate/unrelated
knobs but one of one leading INEVITABLY to
the next. In other words: The explanation to
Existence is always 1,2,3,4,5,6 ... inevitably.

If any other sequece is proposed the proposal is
as wrong as proposing your nephew created the
universe: No proof of that can ever be right. And
regardless how elegant the math may be.

Post by Tomm Carr
How is that? Because the pressure is not
the result of gravity acting
directly on the ping-pong ball. It is the
result of gravity acting on
everything else.
At the surface, and at all points under the
surface until it gets to the
center, gravity is pulling the ball towards
the center. In fact, gravity
is pulling all the hydrogen (yes, helium
and other elements too -- but
vastly more hydrogen) toward the center.
Once at the center, gravity is
no longer effecting the ping-pong ball,
but it is still effecting the
trillions of trillions of trillions of tons
of hydrogen, all being
pulled, and generating pressure, toward
the center -- directly at the
hapless ping-pong ball. This exerts, as
could well be imagined, a good
deal of pressure on said ping-pong ball.

Read the theory of solar system creation:
All your atoms are experiencing a swirling,
NOT a rush towards center (you know, like
the orbiting planets, which are just merely
agglomerations of atoms).

The pressure towards center can NOT be
the result of gravity for an universe of
reasons (no pun intended).

For the reason why everything is always
moving towards center, go thou read it at:

http://physics.sdrodrian.com

You know, when the Ptolemy System was
drawn up... it all fit together perfectly. The
math was mavelus! Except, of course, that
a few "stars" (planets, actually, like Venus)
would suddenly seem to come to a dead stop,
and then go back the way they'd come!!!

But that was just a few planets--Why scrap
a beautiful system like Ptolemy's just for a few
lousy planets that refused to obey its laws?

Well, because it told you the system was rotten.

Well the system of Gravity we have today to
explain the way the universe works doesn't
just have a few wandering planets, it has
scientists losing their sanity and proposing
science fiction solutions at almost EVERY turn:

Time-travel (Yes: they're now quite SERIOUSLY
blaming the failure at CERN on "the notion that
the troubled collider is being sabotaged by its
own future: A pair of otherwise distinguished
physicists have suggested that the hypothesized
Higgs boson, which physicists hope to produce
with the collider, might be so abhorrent to nature
that its creation would ripple backward through
time and stop the collider before it could make
one, like a time traveler who goes back in time
to kill his grandfather.")... and a myriad other
idiotic physical impossibilities like "dark energy."

And yet these idiots refuse to accept that their
extire system is rotten. Believe Einstein on this
one: The solution is not 1, 483, 43, 9, 1999, 2
but 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Inevitability is ALWAYS the correct solution.

Post by Tomm Carr
You can even perform a real-world experiment
to observe this principle,
using a real ping-pong ball and a swimming
pool. At the surface, there
is no pressure on the ball -- it floats there
quite happily. But cup
your hand over it and push it to the bottom
of the deep end. By the time
you get to the bottom of the pool, the ball
should be thoroughly
crushed. By gravity? No, the amount of
gravity pulling on the ball will
not have changed significantly from the top
of the pool to the bottom.
It was all that water on top of the ball
that generated the pressure. --Tomm Catt

I already tried this experiment on the SUN
itself, and burnt my hand--I suggest you try
thought experiments (if you're crazy enough
they'll all work out).

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian.com
http://physics.sdrodrian.com
http://mp3.sdrodrian.com



.

[Tomm Carr]

[a bunch of semi-mystical gobbledy-gook]

My mistake. I thought you were asking a serious question.