Is freedom a religious or secular idea? / S D Rodrian

[Aardvark]

Is freedom a religious or secular idea?

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2011/02/a_freedom_agenda/all.html?hpid=talkbox1

Freedom is an absolutely (impossible to
separate from) secular idea/principle:
How can anyone possibly conceive of the
illogical and utterly ridiculous notion of
human freedom within the concept of a
lifetime observing/worshipping a "being"
(or creature) "higher" than man?!? Under
such obvious conditions of uncontestable
subservience man becomes a mere slave
(of secondary or little importance even
to himself): Only God is important. Man
matters little or not at all. Therefore, if
men must be sacrificed for the sake of
God, what possible objection could a
mere man raise?!? (And so it is in Islam,
where in the Koran the one and only way
anyone is guaranteed a direct & unimpeded
entrance into "Paradise" is to murder as
many human beings as possible while
committing suicide yourself "for God.")

The redeeming peculiarity of Judaism
is told in the story of God asking Abraham
to sacrifice his son--a common practice
in the Middle East then. [Hundreds of years
later, as the Romans were threatening to
destroy Carthage, the "great" Hannibal
ordered the "sacrifice" of Carthaginian
children, including his own--the Romans,
however, were not impressed by this
pious gesture and eventually wiped
Carthage off the map]: But at the last
moment the Hebrew God stops Abraham's
sacrifice, signaling an end to the practice
of human sacrifice from that moment on
--at least for the Jews).

The problem, of course, is fundamental
(and even a humanistic religion like
Judaism escapes it not): There is no god,
of any form/manner or shape; therefore
very human, very mortal men (whether
crazy, wicked, or just plain criminal) are
the ones who "speak" for these "gods."
Ultimately they become the greatest and
most terrible of tyrants (as in modern day
Iran). Someone who knows he has NOT
spoken to any god and yet lies about it
for the sake of personal gains is exactly
the kind of vile/contemptible liar who is
minister of God, whether pastor or imam.

Only when religion (in any & every shape,
manner, and form) is denied a hand in
the governance of men, can men truly
experience freedom. Because only then
can men rule themselves according to their
needs. And that is an absolute without
any qualifications whatsoever.

Only when these "so-called democratic"
popular protests begin calling for secular
governments will they be truly democratic
revolutions. And I don't see that happening
yet, or even any time soon. Sorry to say.

S D Rodrian
http://gotopoems.com
http://thesolutionisthis.com
http://verseplace.com

http://islamisbad.com

The path to Wisdom
always follows that of Truth:

All religions are local.
Only science is universal.

.

[B.T.]

Dear Aardvark,

I believe freedom as a democratic institution and freedom as a
religious warrant for salvation are two separate issues. They don't
cancel each other but each must be made in its own separate
categories.

Freedom as a political institution is a vote for democracy. But
salvation, on the hand, holds separate grammatical intentions in
understanding. Its understanding is that a God must have total and
absolute rights to whether you achieve it or not.

And in this, they can contradict one another if they choose to
interact.

This does not discount some good intentioned Christians from invoking
it as a historically Christian idea, but in the end, they are speaking
two different languages.

This is despite the fact that both salvation and democratic freedom
carries with it terms that would entail ethical responsibility toward
the agent's action. And with this, they can exist with each other in
dialogue.

However, again, responsibility to one's own God is different from
lawful and ethical responsibility to a community existing in freedom.

B.T.

[sarge]

Post by Aardvark
Is freedom a religious or secular idea?
http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2011/02/a_freedom_agenda/al...
Freedom is an absolutely (impossible to
How can anyone possibly conceive of the
illogical and utterly ridiculous notion of
human freedom within the concept of a
lifetime observing/worshipping a "being"
(or creature) "higher" than man?!? Under
such obvious conditions of uncontestable
subservience man becomes a mere slave
(of secondary or little importance even
to himself): Only God is important. Man
matters little or not at all. Therefore, if
men must be sacrificed for the sake of
God, what possible objection could a
mere man raise?!? (And so it is in Islam,
where in the Koran the one and only way
anyone is guaranteed a direct & unimpeded
entrance into "Paradise" is to murder as
many human beings as possible while
committing suicide yourself "for God.")
  The redeeming peculiarity of Judaism
  is told in the story of God asking Abraham
  to sacrifice his son--a common practice
  in the Middle East then. [Hundreds of years
  later, as the Romans were threatening to
  destroy Carthage, the "great" Hannibal
  ordered the "sacrifice" of Carthaginian
  children, including his own--the Romans,
  however, were not impressed by this
  pious gesture and eventually wiped
  Carthage off the map]: But at the last
  moment the Hebrew God stops Abraham's
  sacrifice, signaling an end to the practice
  of human sacrifice from that moment on
  --at least for the Jews).
The problem, of course, is fundamental
(and even a humanistic religion like
Judaism escapes it not): There is no god,
of any form/manner or shape; therefore
very human, very mortal men (whether
crazy, wicked, or just plain criminal) are
the ones who "speak" for these "gods."
Ultimately they become the greatest and
most terrible of tyrants (as in modern day
Iran). Someone who knows he has NOT
spoken to any god and yet lies about it
for the sake of personal gains is exactly
the kind of vile/contemptible liar who is
minister of God, whether pastor or imam.
Only when religion (in any & every shape,
manner, and form) is denied a hand in
the governance of men, can men truly
experience freedom. Because only then
can men rule themselves according to their
needs. And that is an absolute without
any qualifications whatsoever.
Only when these "so-called democratic"
popular protests begin calling for secular
governments will they be truly democratic
revolutions. And I don't see that happening
yet, or even any time soon. Sorry to say.
S D Rodrianhttp://gotopoems.comhttp://thesolutionisthis.comhttp://verseplace.com
http://islamisbad.com
The path to Wisdom
All religions are local.
Only science is universal.
.

If it is only a secular idea, then how strange that the word arose
before anyone was primarily secular.
And science offers no genuine freedom; you have either determinism or
stochastic probablistic processes. Neither offers freedom. Random
influences and determines ones cannot lead to freedom.

[Immortalist]

Post by sarge

Post by Aardvark
Is freedom a religious or secular idea?
http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2011/02/a_freedom_agenda/al...
Freedom is an absolutely (impossible to
How can anyone possibly conceive of the
illogical and utterly ridiculous notion of
human freedom within the concept of a
lifetime observing/worshipping a "being"
(or creature) "higher" than man?!? Under
such obvious conditions of uncontestable
subservience man becomes a mere slave
(of secondary or little importance even
to himself): Only God is important. Man
matters little or not at all. Therefore, if
men must be sacrificed for the sake of
God, what possible objection could a
mere man raise?!? (And so it is in Islam,
where in the Koran the one and only way
anyone is guaranteed a direct & unimpeded
entrance into "Paradise" is to murder as
many human beings as possible while
committing suicide yourself "for God.")
  The redeeming peculiarity of Judaism
  is told in the story of God asking Abraham
  to sacrifice his son--a common practice
  in the Middle East then. [Hundreds of years
  later, as the Romans were threatening to
  destroy Carthage, the "great" Hannibal
  ordered the "sacrifice" of Carthaginian
  children, including his own--the Romans,
  however, were not impressed by this
  pious gesture and eventually wiped
  Carthage off the map]: But at the last
  moment the Hebrew God stops Abraham's
  sacrifice, signaling an end to the practice
  of human sacrifice from that moment on
  --at least for the Jews).
The problem, of course, is fundamental
(and even a humanistic religion like
Judaism escapes it not): There is no god,
of any form/manner or shape; therefore
very human, very mortal men (whether
crazy, wicked, or just plain criminal) are
the ones who "speak" for these "gods."
Ultimately they become the greatest and
most terrible of tyrants (as in modern day
Iran). Someone who knows he has NOT
spoken to any god and yet lies about it
for the sake of personal gains is exactly
the kind of vile/contemptible liar who is
minister of God, whether pastor or imam.
Only when religion (in any & every shape,
manner, and form) is denied a hand in
the governance of men, can men truly
experience freedom. Because only then
can men rule themselves according to their
needs. And that is an absolute without
any qualifications whatsoever.
Only when these "so-called democratic"
popular protests begin calling for secular
governments will they be truly democratic
revolutions. And I don't see that happening
yet, or even any time soon. Sorry to say.
S D Rodrianhttp://gotopoems.comhttp://thesolutionisthis.comhttp://verseplace.com
http://islamisbad.com
The path to Wisdom
All religions are local.
Only science is universal.
.

If it is only a secular idea, then how strange that the word arose
before anyone was primarily secular.
And science offers no genuine freedom; you have either determinism or
stochastic probablistic processes.  Neither offers freedom.  Random
influences and determines ones cannot lead to freedom.

Political freedom is the absence of interference with the sovereignty
of an individual by the use of coercion or aggression. Freedom is
commonly known as the quality or state of being free from government
oppression. This is a definition of freedom which coincides with
negative liberty and freedom can also be defined in the positive sense
of the term which involves having the power and resources to fulfill
one's own potential.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_freedom

[sarge]

Post by Immortalist

Post by sarge

Post by Aardvark
Is freedom a religious or secular idea?
http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2011/02/a_freedom_agenda/al...
Freedom is an absolutely (impossible to
How can anyone possibly conceive of the
illogical and utterly ridiculous notion of
human freedom within the concept of a
lifetime observing/worshipping a "being"
(or creature) "higher" than man?!? Under
such obvious conditions of uncontestable
subservience man becomes a mere slave
(of secondary or little importance even
to himself): Only God is important. Man
matters little or not at all. Therefore, if
men must be sacrificed for the sake of
God, what possible objection could a
mere man raise?!? (And so it is in Islam,
where in the Koran the one and only way
anyone is guaranteed a direct & unimpeded
entrance into "Paradise" is to murder as
many human beings as possible while
committing suicide yourself "for God.")
  The redeeming peculiarity of Judaism
  is told in the story of God asking Abraham
  to sacrifice his son--a common practice
  in the Middle East then. [Hundreds of years
  later, as the Romans were threatening to
  destroy Carthage, the "great" Hannibal
  ordered the "sacrifice" of Carthaginian
  children, including his own--the Romans,
  however, were not impressed by this
  pious gesture and eventually wiped
  Carthage off the map]: But at the last
  moment the Hebrew God stops Abraham's
  sacrifice, signaling an end to the practice
  of human sacrifice from that moment on
  --at least for the Jews).
The problem, of course, is fundamental
(and even a humanistic religion like
Judaism escapes it not): There is no god,
of any form/manner or shape; therefore
very human, very mortal men (whether
crazy, wicked, or just plain criminal) are
the ones who "speak" for these "gods."
Ultimately they become the greatest and
most terrible of tyrants (as in modern day
Iran). Someone who knows he has NOT
spoken to any god and yet lies about it
for the sake of personal gains is exactly
the kind of vile/contemptible liar who is
minister of God, whether pastor or imam.
Only when religion (in any & every shape,
manner, and form) is denied a hand in
the governance of men, can men truly
experience freedom. Because only then
can men rule themselves according to their
needs. And that is an absolute without
any qualifications whatsoever.
Only when these "so-called democratic"
popular protests begin calling for secular
governments will they be truly democratic
revolutions. And I don't see that happening
yet, or even any time soon. Sorry to say.
S D Rodrianhttp://gotopoems.comhttp://thesolutionisthis.comhttp://verseplace.com
http://islamisbad.com
The path to Wisdom
All religions are local.
Only science is universal.
.

If it is only a secular idea, then how strange that the word arose
before anyone was primarily secular.
And science offers no genuine freedom; you have either determinism or
stochastic probablistic processes.  Neither offers freedom.  Random
influences and determines ones cannot lead to freedom.

Political freedom is the absence of interference with the sovereignty
of an individual by the use of coercion or aggression.

But interference in the sovreignty by other means is not a threat to
freedom?

This is a philosophy forum. The word freedom may get tossed about in
certain ways politics, but on a philosophical level, we have to see
freedom in terms of broader causation. The model you present above
is based on a lack of causation (influence), but all sorts of other
causation are not mentioned, as if the lack of the ones you mention
leaves behind freedom because? the others are not causes?

Freedom is

Post by Immortalist
commonly known as the quality or state of being free from government
oppression.

Not in a philosophy forum it ain't.

This is a definition of freedom which coincides with

Post by Immortalist
negative liberty and freedom can also be defined in the positive sense
of the term which involves having the power and resources to fulfill
one's own potential.

Potential is a very shaky concept. It is a bit like 'ought'. Is
potential or is it not?

[Aardvark]

On Feb 17, 9:18 pm, sarge

Post by sarge
If it is only a secular idea, then
how strange that the word arose
before anyone was primarily secular.

I don't suppose you ever heard of the
word "longings" then. You've missed a lot.

Post by sarge
And science offers no genuine freedom;

You are correct: Science offers only facts.
You can do whatever you want with them.
... Oh, wait a minute: That IS freedom!

Post by sarge
you have either determinism or
stochastic probablistic processes.
Neither offers freedom. Random
influences and determines ones
cannot lead to freedom.

Existence which is NOT deterministic is
Insanity. Probabilities are the refuge of
the timid/coward: We either KNOW or
KNOW NOT. If we know not, then the
solution is to improve our science.

S D Rodrian
http://thesolutionisthis.com

*************************************
On Feb 17, 8:32 pm, "B.T."

Post by sarge
Dear Aardvark,
I believe freedom as a democratic institution
and freedom as a
religious warrant for salvation are
two separate issues.

You are forced to believe what the universe
has programmed into you, of course (not
"what you like"). It is only AFTER this, that
"what you believe" is "what you like to believe."
[Were it not so then we would all expect
all men to have identical beliefs--Whay not?!]

If you believe that the state of slavery is
freedom ... who can remove that belief from
you? Therefore: We can not speak of beliefs
in terms of political freedom: Freedom (political
freedom, if you prefer) NEVER involves beliefs:
It is a universal value (a scientific principle, if
you will). No matter what a people believe
they are experiencing, "political freedom" is
something the manner/shape of which all
human beings must have a vote in, whether
they are part of that people or not. [Many
peoples who are experiencing the worst sort
of tyranny claim it as the greatest freedom
of all ... North Korea, Iran, etc. We know
different.]

Post by sarge
They don't
cancel each other but each must be made in
its own separate
categories.

Principles that cancel each other out are
no longer worth considering.

Post by sarge
Freedom as a political institution is a vote
for democracy. But
salvation, on the hand, holds separate
grammatical intentions in
understanding.

Indeed. The devil-worshipper can be saved
by sending him straight to Hell.

Post by sarge
Its understanding is that a God
must have total and
absolute rights to whether you
achieve it or not.

God no more exists than Tinker Bell.

God was created by the ignorance of man
(who, owning a brain that MUST find The
Answer to everything, simply makes up
the most convenient answer to questions
for which he has no ready answers: God is
a mere convenience. A figment of man's
stumped imagination. Once we find out
the answer we were originally looking for
when we made up God for it, God is no
longer needed ... and he vanishes in a puff
of smoke! Puff!

[Since we still live in a very barbarous
and ignorant age, God is still with us all
over the place.]

Post by sarge
And in this, they can contradict one
another if they choose to
interact.
This does not discount some good
intentioned Christians from invoking
it as a historically Christian idea, but
in the end, they are speaking
two different languages.
This is despite the fact that both salvation
and democratic freedom
carries with it terms that would entail
ethical responsibility toward
the agent's action. And with this, they
can exist with each other in
dialogue.
However, again, responsibility to one's
own God is different from
lawful and ethical responsibility to a
community existing in freedom.

What responsibility could I possibly
owe Bugs Bunny?!?

S D Rodrian
http://gotopoems.com
http://thesolutionisthis.com
http://verseplace.com

http://islamisbad.com

The path to Wisdom
always follows that of Truth:

All religions are local.
Only science is universal.

.

Post by sarge
B.T.

RE:

Is freedom a religious or secular idea?

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2011/02/a_freedom_agenda/all.html?hpid=talkbox1

Freedom is an absolutely (impossible to
separate from) secular idea/principle:
How can anyone possibly conceive of the
illogical and utterly ridiculous notion of
human freedom within the concept of a
lifetime observing/worshipping a "being"
(or creature) "higher" than man?!? Under
such obvious conditions of uncontestable
subservience man becomes a mere slave
(of secondary or little importance even
to himself): Only God is important. Man
matters little or not at all. Therefore, if
men must be sacrificed for the sake of
God, what possible objection could a
mere man raise?!? (And so it is in Islam,
where in the Koran the one and only way
anyone is guaranteed a direct & unimpeded
entrance into "Paradise" is to murder as
many human beings as possible while
committing suicide yourself "for God.")

The redeeming peculiarity of Judaism
is told in the story of God asking Abraham
to sacrifice his son--a common practice
in the Middle East then. [Hundreds of years
later, as the Romans were threatening to
destroy Carthage, the "great" Hannibal
ordered the "sacrifice" of Carthaginian
children, including his own--the Romans,
however, were not impressed by this
pious gesture and eventually wiped
Carthage off the map]: But at the last
moment the Hebrew God stops Abraham's
sacrifice, signaling an end to the practice
of human sacrifice from that moment on
--at least for the Jews).

The problem, of course, is fundamental
(and even a humanistic religion like
Judaism escapes it not): There is no god,
of any form/manner or shape; therefore
very human, very mortal men (whether
crazy, wicked, or just plain criminal) are
the ones who "speak" for these "gods."
Ultimately they become the greatest and
most terrible of tyrants (as in modern day
Iran). Someone who knows he has NOT
spoken to any god and yet lies about it
for the sake of personal gains is exactly
the kind of vile/contemptible liar who is
minister of God, whether pastor or imam.

Only when religion (in any & every shape,
manner, and form) is denied a hand in
the governance of men, can men truly
experience freedom. Because only then
can men rule themselves according to their
needs. And that is an absolute without
any qualifications whatsoever.

Only when these "so-called democratic"
popular protests begin calling for secular
governments will they be truly democratic
revolutions. And I don't see that happening
yet, or even any time soon. Sorry to say.

S D Rodrian
http://gotopoems.com
http://thesolutionisthis.com
http://verseplace.com

http://islamisbad.com

The path to Wisdom
always follows that of Truth:

All religions are local.
Only science is universal.

.

[sarge]

Post by Aardvark
On Feb 17, 9:18 pm, sarge

Post by sarge
If it is only a secular idea, then
how strange that the word arose
before anyone was primarily secular.

I don't suppose you ever heard of the
word "longings" then. You've missed a lot.

I have heard of that word. Amazingly enough, quite regularly. I've
even used it.

Post by Aardvark

Post by sarge
And science offers no genuine freedom;

You are correct: Science offers only facts.
You can do whatever you want with them.
... Oh, wait a minute: That IS freedom!

This made no sense as a reponse to the point I was making. It's a
cute lateral jump to something not related.

Again; current scientific theory offers little to support notions of
ontological freedom in humans or elsewhere.

Post by Aardvark

Post by sarge
you have either determinism or
stochastic probablistic processes.
Neither offers freedom.  Random
influences and determines ones
cannot lead to freedom.

Existence which is NOT deterministic is
Insanity. Probabilities are the refuge of
the timid/coward: We either KNOW or
KNOW NOT. If we know not, then the
solution is to improve our science.

You seem to have missed 20th century physics.
Your judgment of probability above indicates this in any case.

[sarge]

Post by Aardvark
On Feb 17, 9:18 pm, sarge

Post by sarge
If it is only a secular idea, then
how strange that the word arose
before anyone was primarily secular.

I don't suppose you ever heard of the
word "longings" then. You've missed a lot.

Post by sarge
And science offers no genuine freedom;

You are correct: Science offers only facts.
You can do whatever you want with them.
... Oh, wait a minute: That IS freedom!

Post by sarge
you have either determinism or
stochastic probablistic processes.
Neither offers freedom.  Random
influences and determines ones
cannot lead to freedom.

Existence which is NOT deterministic is
Insanity. Probabilities are the refuge of
the timid/coward: We either KNOW or
KNOW NOT. If we know not, then the
solution is to improve our science.
S D Rodrianhttp://thesolutionisthis.com
*************************************
On Feb 17, 8:32 pm, "B.T."

Post by sarge
Dear Aardvark,
I believe freedom as a democratic institution
and freedom as a
religious warrant for salvation are
two separate issues.

You are forced to believe what the universe
has programmed into you, of course (not
"what you like"). It is only AFTER this, that
"what you believe" is "what you like to believe."
[Were it not so then we would all expect
all men to have identical beliefs--Whay not?!]
If you believe that the state of slavery is
freedom ... who can remove that belief from
you? Therefore: We can not speak of beliefs
in terms of political freedom: Freedom (political
It is a universal value (a scientific principle, if
you will). No matter what a people believe
they are experiencing, "political freedom" is
something the manner/shape of which all
human beings must have a vote in, whether
they are part of that people or not. [Many
peoples who are experiencing the worst sort
of tyranny claim it as the greatest freedom
of all ... North Korea, Iran, etc. We know
different.]

Post by sarge
They don't
cancel each other but each must be made in
its own separate
categories.

Principles that cancel each other out are
no longer worth considering.

Post by sarge
Freedom as a political institution is a vote
for democracy. But
salvation, on the hand, holds separate
grammatical intentions in
understanding.

Indeed. The devil-worshipper can be saved
by sending him straight to Hell.

Post by sarge
Its understanding is that a God
must have total and
absolute rights to whether you
achieve it or not.

God no more exists than Tinker Bell.
God was created by the ignorance of man
(who, owning a brain that MUST find The
Answer to everything, simply makes up
the most convenient answer to questions
for which he has no ready answers: God is
a mere convenience. A figment of man's
stumped imagination. Once we find out
the answer we were originally looking for
when we made up God for it, God is no
longer needed ... and he vanishes in a puff
of smoke! Puff!
  [Since we still live in a very barbarous
   and ignorant age, God is still with us all
   over the place.]

Post by sarge
And in this, they can contradict one
another if they choose to
interact.
This does not discount some good
intentioned Christians from invoking
it as a historically Christian idea, but
in the end, they are speaking
two different languages.
This is despite the fact that both salvation
and democratic freedom
carries with it terms that would entail
ethical responsibility toward
the agent's action. And with this, they
can exist with each other in
dialogue.
However, again, responsibility to one's
own God is different from
lawful and ethical responsibility to a
community existing in freedom.

What responsibility could I possibly
owe Bugs Bunny?!?
S D Rodrianhttp://gotopoems.comhttp://thesolutionisthis.comhttp://verseplace.com
http://islamisbad.com
The path to Wisdom
All religions are local.
Only science is universal.
.

Post by sarge
B.T.

Is freedom a religious or secular idea?
http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2011/02/a_freedom_agenda/al...
Freedom is an absolutely (impossible to
How can anyone possibly conceive of the
illogical and utterly ridiculous notion of
human freedom within the concept of a
lifetime observing/worshipping a "being"
(or creature) "higher" than man?!? Under
such obvious conditions of uncontestable
subservience man becomes a mere slave
(of secondary or little importance even
to himself): Only God is important. Man
matters little or not at all. Therefore, if
men must be sacrificed for the sake of
God, what possible objection could a
mere man raise?!? (And so it is in Islam,
where in the Koran the one and only way
anyone is guaranteed a direct & unimpeded
entrance into "Paradise" is to murder as
many human beings as possible while
committing suicide yourself "for God.")
  The redeeming peculiarity of Judaism
  is told in the story of God asking Abraham
  to sacrifice his son--a common practice
  in the Middle East then. [Hundreds of years
  later, as the Romans were threatening to
  destroy Carthage, the "great" Hannibal
  ordered the "sacrifice" of Carthaginian
  children, including his own--the Romans,
  however, were not impressed by this
  pious gesture and eventually wiped
  Carthage off the map]: But at the last
  moment the Hebrew God stops Abraham's
  sacrifice, signaling an end to the practice
  of human sacrifice from that moment on
  --at least for the Jews).
The problem, of course, is fundamental
(and even a humanistic religion like
Judaism escapes it not): There is no god,
of any form/manner or shape; therefore
very human, very mortal men (whether
crazy, wicked, or just plain criminal) are
the ones who "speak" for these "gods."
Ultimately they become the greatest and
most terrible of tyrants (as in modern day
Iran). Someone who knows he has NOT
spoken to any god and yet lies about it
for the sake of personal gains is exactly
the kind of vile/contemptible liar who is
minister of God, whether pastor or imam.
Only when religion (in any & every shape,
manner, and form) is denied a hand in
the governance of men, can men truly
experience freedom. Because only then
can men rule themselves according to their
needs. And that is an absolute without
any qualifications whatsoever.
Only when these "so-called democratic"
popular protests begin calling for secular
governments will they be truly democratic
revolutions. And I don't see that happening
yet, or even any time soon. Sorry to say.
S D Rodrianhttp://gotopoems.comhttp://thesolutionisthis.comhttp://verseplace.com
http://islamisbad.com
The path to Wisdom
All religions are local.
Only science is universal.
.

And by the way, you restricted it to only determinism. How is there
freedom in a deterministic universe?

[Aardvark]

On Feb 18, 6:03 pm, sarge

On 18 Feb, 22:18, Aardvark

Post by Aardvark
Existence which is NOT deterministic is
Insanity.

And by the way, you restricted it to only
determinism. How is there
freedom in a deterministic universe?

I~?

In a non-deterministic universe banana peel
unmade bed. That little cusp which pops out
when one opens a can of Coke. Darius's beard,
a fluffy Puff. How dare you! Candle wax. Hoy
(fried cat's paws). Somebody stole my bicycle!
Betcha I can toss my rocks further than you.
Ketchup soup? Which planet did you say this
was? Uranium cake. How much did you pay for
this? Worm. While strolling through the park one
stolen hub cap, crematorium. You see my point?

You don't have to be a genius to understand this.
Every dog on earth knows this: Watch any dog
and you'll NEVER see it stop before entering a
room and looking to see that it's still a room
before entering. He'll just enter, because he
knows "instinctively" (that means that the
universe has written these instructions into
his brain over millions of years) that the room
he remembers having been there before is there
still and will always be there until somebody
burns down the house for the insurance money.
And he will then never again bother to go to that
room which isn't there any more. Simple stuff.

And for Frankensteiners who tell you that in
super-small places the universe ceases to be
deterministic and becomes Magical! Ask then
how comes it then entanglement works (most
of the time if not all of the time) deterministically.
As does everything else they eventually take
the time to study with time, instead of just
coming up with The Answer instantly. NO:

The answer is that there is NO real freedom
in a deterministic universe, just the brain
fooling itself. The brain is a marvelous tool:
It evolved to predict the future (in an utterly
deterministic universe, that's pretty much
the thing one can do, and ought to do better).
[The future is ALL in the past. Find it there!]
Also, as an aside, the creature carrying the
brain is bound to develop an insanity or two
(especially if it comes to realize it's just a
dumb vehicle for carrying the brain around),
so the brain concocts a fantasy for the poor sap
in which it (he/she) is actually the driver! Ha!
Ha! Ha! What a poor sap!

Somewhere in The Higher Brain there must be
a couple of million cells who, knowing this,
are rolling on the floor laughing their tentacles
off. Now I'm going to type more... Yeah, sure:
You're going to the can. Okay.

Bye now,

S D Rodrian
http://gotopoems.com
http://thesolutionisthis.com
http://verseplace.com

http://islamisbad.com

The path to Wisdom
always follows that of Truth:

All religions are local.
Only science is universal.

Learn or rue!

.

[Aardvark]

On Feb 18, 6:03 pm, sarge

On 18 Feb, 22:18, Aardvark

Post by Aardvark
Existence which is NOT deterministic is
Insanity.

And by the way, you restricted it to only
determinism. How is there
freedom in a deterministic universe?

I~?

In a non-deterministic universe banana peel
unmade bed. That little cusp which pops out
when one opens a can of Coke. Darius's beard,
a fluffy Puff. How dare you! Candle wax. Hoy
(fried cat's paws). Somebody stole my bicycle!
Betcha I can toss my rocks further than you.
Ketchup soup? Which planet did you say this
was? Uranium cake. How much did you pay for
this? Worm. While strolling through the park one
stolen hub cap, crematorium. You see my point?

You don't have to be a genius to understand this.
Every dog on earth knows this: Watch any dog
and you'll NEVER see it stop before entering a
room and looking to see that it's still a room
before entering. He'll just enter, because he
knows "instinctively" (that means that the
universe has written these instructions into
his brain over millions of years) that the room
he remembers having been there before is there
still and will always be there until somebody
burns down the house for the insurance money.
And he will then never again bother to go to that
room which isn't there any more. Simple stuff.

And for Frankensteiners who tell you that in
super-small places the universe ceases to be
deterministic and becomes Magical! Ask then
how comes it then entanglement works (most
of the time if not all of the time) deterministically.
As does everything else they eventually take
the time to study with time, instead of just
coming up with The Answer instantly. NO:

The answer is that there is NO real freedom
in a deterministic universe, just the brain
fooling itself. The brain is a marvelous tool:
It evolved to predict the future (in an utterly
deterministic universe, that's pretty much
the thing one can do, and ought to do better).
[The future is ALL in the past. Find it there!]
Also, as an aside, the creature carrying the
brain is bound to develop an insanity or two
(especially if it comes to realize it's just a
dumb vehicle for carrying the brain around),
so the brain concocts a fantasy for the poor sap
in which it (he/she) is actually the driver! Ha!
Ha! Ha! What a poor sap!

Somewhere in The Higher Brain there must be
a couple of million cells who, knowing this,
are rolling on the floor laughing their tentacles
off. Now I'm going to type more... Yeah, sure:
You're going to the can. Okay.

Bye now,

S D Rodrian
http://gotopoems.com
http://thesolutionisthis.com
http://verseplace.com

http://islamisbad.com

The path to Wisdom
always follows that of Truth:

All religions are local.
Only science is universal.

Learn or rue!

.

[Sir Frederick Martin]

"All religions are local.
Only science is universal."

But then, 'religion', is a branch of science.
And the mystery goes on. Even said mystery
is a branch of science.

On religion, try neurotheology :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotheology

[Aardvark]

Post by Sir Frederick Martin

"All religions are local.
Only science is universal."

But then, 'religion', is a branch of science.
And the mystery goes on. Even said mystery
is a branch of science.

And I once had a teacher who was
a beach ball!

SDR

Post by Sir Frederick Martin
On religion, try neurotheology :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotheology

[Sir Frederick Martin]

Post by Aardvark

Post by Sir Frederick Martin

"All religions are local.
Only science is universal."

But then, 'religion', is a branch of science.
And the mystery goes on. Even said mystery
is a branch of science.

And I once had a teacher who was
a beach ball!
SDR

Whatever story you practice, thus support, in your
brain based virtual reality.

Post by Aardvark

Post by Sir Frederick Martin
On religion, try neurotheology :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotheology